Author Topic: Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?  (Read 36994 times)

Jens Namtrah

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Cliques - a problem? and how to deal with them?
« Topic Start: August 24, 2014, 12:43:44 AM »
Not a new topic in BM, but I feel with the efforts & concerns about player retention it is time to look at this more deeply and see if it is contributing to the problems, and what to do about it.

As I said in the other thread, this problem is like Art. You can't necessarily quantify it, but you know it when you see it. Therefore, I don't think we should try to rely too heavily on statistics - they aren't going to teach us much. We will need a more human approach.

I'm going to separate my own opinions into a separate post below.

Jens Namtrah

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First of all, what is the point of this?

I think people who read this need to understand that they are of the top x% of players of the game - basically, addicted, and will make large efforts to rearrange their characters to continue having fun.

The majority of players in the game will not make those efforts.

People who read this thread are the type who will work for months to stage a rebellion, or ask around for a new realm and uproot themselves, or other attempts.

The majority of players in the game will not make those efforts. They will simply become less active, or stop logging in.

So if you are going to contribute anything meaningful to this conversation, you have to stop thinking and talking like a player who has been around for years and has dozens of friends. You have to put yourself in the shoes of the average player who's been around for a much shorter time and does not have all the doors open to them the moment they join a new realm.

Secondly, what is the exact issue we are concerned with?

1) Realms that simply exclude most players from participating in decisions at some level.

Allowing the realm to chatter while a select few have their own real conversation doesn't count.

2) Informing players  OOC that they cannot participate in certain areas due to the length of time they have been in the realm

If there is an IR that players can play at their own pace, there should be another that says they have the right to play for "real" based on activity and contribution, not how long they've been around.

(We're not talking about the guy who want to be ruler on his 3rd day - use some common sense.)

Realms that show obvious "gangbang" opinions in support of one of their members

To be more clear, I see too many instances where a character will behave in a crude, vulgar manner and receive full support from the realm against a newer player/character not part of their group. They aren't roleplaying, they are supporting their clique.

Realms where there are council members who have held the position for more than 2 years

I'm so terribly sick of the "this is hard and we need the right person" argument. This is a game that high school players participate in. You don't need a degree in economics to be the banker. If they are new, teach them.


There are other indicators, to be sure, but still trying to vet some of them from my own personal pet peeves, so I'll go with that for now. Now for a few ways to deal with this.

Anaris

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2) Informing players  OOC that they cannot participate in certain areas due to the length of time they have been in the realm

If there is an IR that players can play at their own pace, there should be another that says they have the right to play for "real" based on activity and contribution, not how long they've been around.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. It is completely IC to tell people that they cannot have an office because they are unknown or too inexperienced at a particular position, as compared to someone else.

In general, I agree that we need to do more to break up cliques. However, here, it sounds very much like you're trying to explicitly forbid people from keeping a good General or Banker in office just because someone who's been in the game a few months wants to take it. Sure, maybe it would make the game more dynamic...but the realms that actually do that would be much, much more likely to lose wars, starve their regions, or otherwise have serious troubles because of it.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Jens Namtrah

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Some solutions:

First - we are not out to try to lightning bolt people. We ARE trying to make these groups share the game - and

NOT SHARE POWER, BUT RATHER,  SHARE PARTICIPATION

Read that again.

NOT SHARE POWER, BUT RATHER,  SHARE PARTICIPATION

This is not about allowing new characters to become rulers. This is about allowing new players to feel like they are fully playing the game. That they aren't on a 5 year waiting list to get a spot in the "real game".

One problem we have is that there are many realms that have the problems above, but EVERYBODY IS HAPPY! So why is that a problem?

It's a problem because "everybody" includes future players as well. Therefore, there must be some minimum standards that all realms must adhere to so that when a new player joins, the game can offer him a certain experience (as much as that is possible, given that people are obviously different and no experience will ever be exact). If the game advertises that this is a team-player RPG, and then his experience is such that he feels like a drone and not a team player, the game has failed.

NO REALM HAS THE RIGHT TO CAUSE THE GAME TO FAIL FOR ITS OWN PERSONAL SATISFACTION.

BM does not get new players at a rate that affords it the luxury of losing a certain percentage simply through the selfishness of certain groups. This is hurting the game, and therefore BM has EVERY RIGHT to step in and take steps to correct the problem.

How?

First of all, get some information. There has been talk for years about "polls" for players who quit - don't wait that long, and don't spend time writing unnecessary code. Set up MONTHLY polls to all characters using a third-party survey tool & just message everyone  in-game a link.

Ask questions like:
(scale of 1-5)
- I know why my realm is at war right now
- I feel the ruler/council considers opinions I give when making decisions
- I have had an opportunity to gain a new position (lord, vice marshal, run for council) this month
- I feel the realm has an exclusionary clique

Read these to look for trouble spots. You can't just let a computer script find those - you'll need to look it over and see what stands out, and then do the next step.

Second - an "Investigation Group"
 Polls won't tell you everything, or what the precise problems are. Make a small group of  players who can be trusted to be discreet and professional, and allow them a separate account to create characters to check out the realm for a few months themselves and make a report. Tom used to do this all the time - there's no substitute for "boots on the ground"

If they decide there seems to be a problem, start communications with the ruler & the realm to convey that and work out what needs to be done to improve that realm.

I think you will find that most of the time these players will not realize, or not agree there is a problem. It will take some case-by-case creativity. Keep in mind - and keep reminding them - that this is for the benefit of ALL the players, present and future, and that a more active game is almost always a better one.

 



Jens Namtrah

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I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense. It is completely IC to tell people that they cannot have an office because they are unknown or too inexperienced at a particular position, as compared to someone else.

In general, I agree that we need to do more to break up cliques. However, here, it sounds very much like you're trying to explicitly forbid people from keeping a good General or Banker in office just because someone who's been in the game a few months wants to take it. Sure, maybe it would make the game more dynamic...but the realms that actually do that would be much, much more likely to lose wars, starve their regions, or otherwise have serious troubles because of it.

No, it doesn't sound like that at all. Read again and think about it.

Do try to think about what I said for at least as long as I spent writing it, before posting replies.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 01:51:05 AM by Miskel Hemmings »

Anaris

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No, it doesn't sound like that at all. Read again and think about it.

You may not have meant it like that, but I assure you, that is how it sounded.

Your next post has some good ideas—I do have more surveys on my TODO list, but I'm afraid putting them together in a third-party tool and getting the links out to people isn't significantly more work than building it in BM, based on the surveys we've already done—but also makes some assumptions.

First of all, there is the assumption that it is, at present, possible to put together a group of players both willing and able to put in the amount of extra time required to do the kind of monitoring that your suggestions require. I don't think that's necessarily wrong, but I'm quite sure that it's not necessarily right, either.

Second of all, there's a more fundamental assumption: that it is possible to get any significant percentage of the player base to put the health of the game ahead of the good of their realm—or even be able to see the two as being meaningfully separate. After all, for most people, what they get to see is just what's going on in their realm, so how are they supposed to have any idea what to do differently than "what's best for my realm" in order to improve the game?

Don't forget, Miskel, that a (sadly) significant percentage of the game honestly believes that the people in the realms they are at war with is acting in bad faith, being hypocritical or deceitful, or otherwise being bad people OOC just to "get ahead" in the game...because that's the way the human mind works when put in the "us vs them" mode.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Jens Namtrah

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Thank you for giving me all of 8 minutes of thought.

I took out solid hour of my Sunday morning to try to write out some clear thoughts to start the conversation about something important, and simply asked you not to post anything until you had spent a bit of time thinking about things I wrote.

Anaris

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Thank you for giving me all of 8 minutes of thought.

I took out solid hour of my Sunday morning to try to write out some clear thoughts to start the conversation about something important, and simply asked you not to post anything until you had spent a bit of time thinking about things I wrote.

Believe it or not, Miskel, you are not the first one to think these thoughts. I have thought about these issues quite a bit before.

Also, I think pretty fast. If your issue is purely how long it took me to poke a couple of holes in what you apparently thought was a gem-like argument of perfect beauty, then I suggest you try to actually read and think about what I've written.

I don't have all the answers, Miskel. I guarantee you, not a single one of us here does. If you ask Tom, he'll be quick to tell you he doesn't, either. Thinking that you have all the answers, or that no one could possibly poke holes in your theories, ideas, and arguments is a supremely arrogant position to take. I'm sorry it only took me eight minutes to do it, instead of hours, but unless you can show how my rebuttals are actually wrong, I don't see how the amount of time it took me to do is in any way relevant.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Indirik

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Some ideas:

I like the idea of polls, but I'm not sure how well the feedback will work. It's worth a shot, though. My gut reaction is that you will find that everyone not in power will accuse the people in power of being an exclusionary clique.


I despise the idea of a secret police spying on realms to make sure they are playing in an approved manner. Nothing good can come of this plan.


Your point of sharing participation is a good one. It is something that needs to be done, and done more often. It is too easy to fall into the habit of talking in small groups and closed councils.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Dishman

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Cliques happen in almost any social hierarchy. It sucks, but most human behavior tends toward easy 'suck' approaches. That doesn't mean the game is ruined, or that new players can't find fun....just the old cliques need to be ousted.

The best that can happen is the 'old guard' approach new players to expand their ranks....or for several dissidents organize and remove the old guard. Creation of new realms, rebellions, and inclusive 'council' message groups for specific purposes can keep new players engaged beyond the order drone mentality....but it does require effort from those with the tools.

So far, BM has enough mechanics to balance this (assuming people unite with similar ideas). It is just a matter of those new folk who are dissatisfied being included into the hodge-podge that are some realms....or being approached by older (mentor) dissidents for regime change.

A few extra tools would help people organize...but it still falls victim to human lazyness/nepotism/greed. Overcoming human nature is a big task....but I do like to see a discussion on it (for the betterment of BM).
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Eduardo Almighty

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As every problem usually has two sides - or more - I've noticed in some realms that we simply don't have people interested in positions. A more obvious example for me is Sirion where virtually nobody wants to be Lord (with exception of cities), it's very hard to find anyone who wants to be Marshal and we had some problems to find a General.

If not for the old guard, I really don't know who would form the Council of Sirion, since we haven't had disputes for Judge or Prime Minister in the last months. Also, you must understand that despite some enthusiasts, there is really a majority that see in characters like Ecthelion the safe port that keeps him in his position even in a Republic where we have elections every month. I dare to say that Erik would be Judge indefinitely if I hadn't forced him to have behaviors that generate insecurity among the ranks.

My solution for very old "rulers"? Mortality. Any other OOC change would be it... something external to "fix" something internal.
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
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flames

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In smaller and weaker realms it's usually not a problem at all to get into some position.

Sure, it's too little power struggle overall in all game - potentially it could be much much more. However, the game is not a job, I don't see why player should work to make the game interesting to other players.

Indirik

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A more interesting game attracts and keeps more players, making it better for everyone. You shouldn't have to "work" at it. You're right, it's not a job. But you do need to consider other players in your plans. 
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Chenier

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I don't like the idea of some thought police that determines which group is a bunch of nice guys, and which  ones are bad evil cliques. Cliques, in the sens of a closed group, suck. However, I've seen more accusations of cliques than were warranted. Often, newbs would go around doing things that were completely against the culture of the realm, and then would whine persecution and cliques. Sure, it sucks to make a bad gamble and go too far down an RP path that doesn't suit the realm you picked, but that doesn't mean the realm is led by a bunch of bad guys. I don't like the prospect of turning players against each other, calling each other the game-ruining cliques.

I think mobility needs to be stressed more with newbies. "If you don't like your realm, move to another one!" Don't allow them to create two characters on the same continent for an X period of time, then don't allow them to create a character in a realm they've already got one for another Y. The mechanics of restricting how many characters new players can play is also in our disfavor. The more realms they can experience, the better the odds of them finding one they enjoy. The fewer, the greater the odds that they give up before having a representative experience. Perks for having played a long time aren't a bad idea, but active character limits aren't the proper way to proceed.

I also despise mortality. Every time the game killed one of my characters, I felt like quitting. Old characters have a background, they have contacts, a reputation, a personality. That's what makes them fun. People recognize them. And react to this. New characters are hollow shells. Any written background is fluff of little interest. When Nicolas died, Guillaume was absolutely hollow. He had no personality whatsoever. And the thought of making him one of my main characters was repulsive. But did mortality really shake things up and leave more room for newbies? No, not really. Guillaume ended up climbing back to occupy a position of equivalence to the one Nicolas had. That's what happens with mortality more often then not, you'll get another character of the same family, but with a far less rich background, ascend to the predecessor's spot. But the the lack of background is actually detrimental. Of all of the factors that played against Enweil over the years, the forced mortality during the early phases of the fourth invasion is what killed it. With so many nobles killed, many did not come back. And of those who did, they had little RP motivation to interact with each other, because none of the new characters had any prior contact with each other. Some players have the will and time to reach out to many people in a very short period of time, most don't. And in that period of transition where people figured out if the new characters were being played like the dead one, the team spirit was dead because no one could really trust anyone.
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Sacha

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Well, that just sounds like mortality sucks for you in particular. It's natural that new characters don't have a rich background, and they shouldn't automatically assume the positions left by dead nobles. That is why you make sure that when the older ones die, there are people around to replace them. Other people, not new nobles from the old family. In fact, the way your message comes across is 'Mortality makes keeping cliques around harder'. You complain that new nobles have no motivation to interact? That's just crap. They're the sons and daughters of your realm's elite, why the !@#$ would they not try to pick things up where others left off?