Strokes & Comas for old characters or anything else you want to talk about

[Jens Namtrah]

Life expectancy of Medieval Britain was 64 if you reached adulthood:

"Medieval Britain[17][18]    30    At age 21, life expectancy was an additional 43 years (total age 64)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy

Therefore, I don't believe our current system of merely making 80, 90, 100+ yo characters a bit "slower" is very realistic. I think once we reach an age of, perhaps 80?, there is a random chance every sunset that the player will have slipped off into a coma during the night. This chance will increase with every year added.

To fit in with the new system, I guess this would be something like a triple critical wounding, taking considerable time to recover from. They could, of course, have a chance each turn of slipping back into the coma.

Granted - with many characters, few would actually notice they had slipped into a coma unless they lost their positions. But still, it would add some realism to the game. I mean, you can't really expect us to believe that a character who is, say:

XX   104 years   

Would be able to slip into his plate mail and run off to fight monsters, do you? And who, In Game, would grant this type of person any sort of position knowing - as our characters do - that they should have been dead 40 years ago and could go face down in their evening soup?  I mean, Bob Dole was only 73 when he ran for President, and his age was a major consideration. Would you grant an important job to someone who was

xx 103 years

or

xx 106 years

or

xx 107 years

If players want to keep these characters immortal, that's fine, but it really needs to come with a penalty. We're not role playing a chatroom, we're roleplaying Medieval Life.

[Jens Namtrah]

Perhaps they followed this gentleman's advice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f3-h6W_woo

(be sure to watch at 2:15, and mentally substitute in a broadsword :-) )

[Jens Namtrah]

Perhaps they followed this gentleman's advice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f3-h6W_woo

(be sure to watch at 2:15, and mentally substitute in a broadsword :-) )

This will probably help you understand such in-game quotes as

"Not terribly long ago, ASI decided ... Falasan allowed them to use their lands to do so"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_DHLvmKt7A

Now there's a front line knight!

[vonGenf]

Therefore, I don't believe our current system of merely making 80, 90, 100+ yo characters a bit "slower" is very realistic. I think once we reach an age of, perhaps 80?, there is a random chance every sunset that the player will have slipped off into a coma during the night. This chance will increase with every year added.

Something similar was proposed last year and we worked out some of the math on that:

http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,4997.msg116542.html#msg116542

It wasn't accepted then, but I'd still like something similar to this. It should have a light touch, but it should exist.

[Jens Namtrah]

Interesting. Didn't read through all 5 pages of it, but:

Mortality is much more debatable. This is just simply that you have to play realistic characters.

We are NOT allowed to play non-humans

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/FAQ

Can I be an elf/orc/nubliglub?
    No, you can't. All characters are humans in BattleMaster, which is strictly a low-fantasy game. There are some monsters, undead and legends about fairies, trolls and other creatures, but your character is a human.

Meaning, you can't play a 10 foot tall man, or someone who can lift 2000lbs, or..who can wear in plate mail & sword & ride a horse into battle when they are 104 years old.

You are perfectly welcome to play a character that age. You just have to expect him to be limited to what a 104 yo can do.

Which ain't much.

[Chenier]

Please, if you consider that the characters we play are all those who lived past 21 (isn't that the "young" starting age? if not, just about).

What's the character life expectancy in BM? I'd be ready to swear it's much lower than 64. Characters 64 and over have been around forever, and they do not abound in great numbers.

[Jens Namtrah]

Please, if you consider that the characters we play are all those who lived past 21 (isn't that the "young" starting age? if not, just about).

Characters 64 and over have been around forever, and they do not abound in great numbers.

That's nonsense. I spent 5 minutes clicking around and found 20 of them in just 2 realms

Also, I believe you wanted to mention that your Main Character would be affected by this change in a short time, didn't you?

Machiavel   73 years

[Constantine]

I thought this thread was about punctuation. :D
Seriously though, I agree that there should be an incentive for players to eventually retire their characters and let others have their chance to climb the rank ladder. I don't think there should be a mechanic that kills characters though, it should be a conscious decision.
As far as I understand, currently elderly characters just receive less hours per turn and that's it. Doesn't really work, we just get lots of senile lords sitting on their hands with several hours per day.
I'd agree with the idea that characters past 60 should have a severely limited combat capability. So realms full of old leaders would simply crumble when a major conflict erupts.

[Chenier]

That's nonsense. I spent 5 minutes clicking around and found 20 of them in just 2 realms

Also, I believe you wanted to mention that your Main Character would be affected by this change in a short time, didn't you?

Machiavel   73 years

Yea, Machiavel's old. That's part of my point, he's been there since forever. He's older than almost every realm on Dwilight, and outlived quite a few. And yet, he is only 9 years over the life expectancy. Jean-Olivier died in battle at 27. Lyse retired at 32. Louis-Joseph retired at 53. Nicolas died in battle at 51. Miroslav was executed at 32. Stanislav retired at 43. Jeanne and Guillaume commited suicide at 53. Pyotr retired at 27.

Machiavel is the sole character of the Chénier family, founded in 2006, that lived past the medieval life expectancy. And since life expectancy is an average, it seems rather reasonable that at least one family member would surpass it.

If your realms suck, stop blaming the whole game for it. Feels like I have to shift through two realms just to find 20 characters, regardless of age.

And while yes, it's easy to say "hey, he has an old character, therefore everything he says is worthless!", my stance has remained unchanged in a good number of years, since way before Machiavel got this old. I like old characters. Others' just as much as mine. I prefer them. They have a history, a background. They make roleplay richer. They can tell stories from way back, they hold grudges over things nobody remembers, and carry a culture that benefits everyone. They are also remarkable, noteworthy. Their name is called and many from far away recognize it.

When you fragilize the character, you force players to give greater importance to family. Keeping a few characters separate is a relatively easy task, if characters must continuously be replaced, then avoiding making them carbon copies becomes both difficult and tedious. It also does not favor turnover. All it does is increase the importance of family, and thus nepotism. "We'll make this new noble margrave because his uncle served us well". The more risk you impose upon older characters, the more players will naturally tend to form cliques in order to restore titles upon each other when a character dies.

I don't even like the current mechanics, I see them as more harmful than beneficial. Players grow attached to their characters, and they will keep playing them long past when it is strategically sound to keep doing so. What does this mean? It means that by the time active characters get the top ranks, their characters start getting fewer hours and thus become liabilities in military activities. Since getting less hours tends to make them lag behind in army movements, they'll often just decide to sit back on military duties and do administrative work instead, or just sit and distribute gold. And since healing takes longer, they'll often be much less inclined to go out and take risks, as wounds in battle or by infiltrators can keep them out for a while. They don't all do that (I don't), but back in the days when I was younger and kept much greater OOC contact with other BM players, it became obvious that many did. And even if I don't sit passively in a safe spot, even Machiavel has a lot less opportunities than before. I used to hop regions a lot back in the days to participate in RPs, trade, and preaching. Now... god, it feels like I get half the hours I used to. If I know I can only stay away from my realm/region for X amount of time, then my travel potential is half of what it was for the same amount of time earlier on.

Penalizing old characters does not increase turnover. It doesn't increase opportunity. All it does is hold down these characters, making them less fun for their players, and making them create less fun for their peers.

[Constantine]

If your realms suck, stop blaming the whole game for it.

I think you're missing the point.
It's not about blaming players or the game itself. It's about finding ways to create more opportunity and make realms more dynamic.

Penalizing old characters does not increase turnover. It doesn't increase opportunity. All it does is hold down these characters, making them less fun for their players, and making them create less fun for their peers.

Agreed, that's why we should find a way to encourage people to retire old characters and make way for the young ones instead of penalizing the geezers.

[Jens Namtrah]

if characters must continuously be replaced, then avoiding making them carbon copies becomes both difficult and tedious

yes, I'm sure coming up with a new character idea every 7-8 real life years is going to be an issue for some people. hadn't thought of that. good point.

[De-Legro]

Please also note that character age is not simply the time the characters has spent in the game. It is not chronological age but rather "effective" age. A character that is constantly wounded ages faster then one that does not.

[Jens Namtrah]

Please also note that character age is not simply the time the characters has spent in the game. It is not chronological age but rather "effective" age. A character that is constantly wounded ages faster then one that does not.

Correct - all the more reason why they ought to be dead at age 107, having got that way through constant woundings on top of the normal aging.

trust me, as a middle-aged former athlete - the body breaks down

[De-Legro]

Correct - all the more reason why they ought to be dead at age 107, having got that way through constant woundings on top of the normal aging.

trust me, as a middle-aged former athlete - the body breaks down

No really? Here I was thinking seniors were all just putting on an act. As far as I can recall Tom is the man you need to convince regarding character deaths or new penalities for old characters. Increasing he already present penalities would possibly be easier in terms of getting approval.

[Eirikr]

While my stance on the whole mortality, old characters, etc. thing is pretty well known (short version: I'm in favor of characters dying at some point) and I think the basic argument carries some weight, I can't possibly take your suggestion seriously with these YouTube videos or these thinly veiled pokes at specific characters. (A quote from a letter in-game? Really?)

If you can make the suggestion objective and detailed, accompanied with benefits and risks, then maybe it'll be worth putting into the game at some point (the dev team and Tom have the say). And no, throwing math and statistics into there is not "being objective". BM has never pretended to be accurate and does bill itself as a fantasy game. The setting is medieval, but from there, it's game design choices and creativity. Which is why benefits and risks to the game, not to a notion of medieval realism, has merit.

Yes, I agree there is a problem with ages and old characters. No, I do not think this would solve the problem of the same people winding up in power - the real issue you're trying to work at.