Author Topic: Skill Advancement  (Read 3392 times)

Eldargard

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Skill Advancement
« Topic Start: October 09, 2014, 09:12:00 AM »
I would love it if the skills of characters in combat oriented classes would actually advance more rapidly by doing their job (fighting in battles). Many other classes, as I understand it, do this.

I know that as a priest, I can increase my oration skill quite rapidly by just going out and preaching - time at the academy is really needed.

As an adventurer one's adventuring skill and swordsmanship rise rapidly as you go about your business.

I am guessing that Courtier's and Diplomats also see their class specific skills raise reasonably just by doing their thing.

I have even read that an Infiltrators infiltration skill can be trained somewhat reasonably outside of the academy - though I do not believe this is the same for the infiltrators swordsmanship skill.

The combat oriented classes (Warrior, Cavalier, Hero) seem to be at a disadvantage here - as it stands real skill development for these classes require academy time!

I am not just referring to the percentage chance of such a skill rising from a battle compared to the percentage chance of the same skill rising from time at the academy. Unless these values are significantly different of course. Simply put a character can engage in a whole lot more academy training sessions that they can engage in battles over the course of a month or what not.

I do not really have a good suggestion regarding how this could happen. Anything that would allow the soldiering classes improve their class specific skills at a reasonable rate by just doing their job would be great. Something comparable to the rate at which other classes cat increase their class specific skills would be ideal!

Eldargard

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #1: October 09, 2014, 09:18:14 AM »
One Sketchy Idea:

A combat class character can select a "stance" to take in battles. They can select from options like:

"Command From the Rear" - Lowers your chance of gaining skill in Swordsmanship and Jousting and decreases the H/P earned but virtually Guarantees a Leadership Skill Increase.

"Fight at the Fore" - Lowers the chance of gaining skill in Leadership and increases the chance on injury but nearly guarantees an increase in the sword (if leading Infantry) or the lance (if leading calvary)

"Balanced Approach" - Pretty much does what we already do.

Eldargard

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #2: October 09, 2014, 09:27:51 AM »
Another Idea:

Simply increase the chance of increasing either Leadership  or the appropriate weapon skill each battle (with weapon skill increase being more likely). Make it nearly guaranteed likely that one or the other will increase.

It may sound extreme to virtually guarantee an increase in one department of the other. However, even if ALL skills increased by one after every battle, it would still take a LOT of battles to max them out. Something in the range of 80 of so. I doubt many characters have engaged in so many battles and if they have, they deserve the level of skill they gain.

Besides, skills would still degrade when unused so skilled warriors who start hanging out at their estates would see hard earned skills drop. Unless the use the Academy to keep sharp. Then Academies become a recurse for Skill maintenance primarily and serve as skill builders only when a good battle can not be found.

I honestly think I like this option best. Lead infantry for a while and see meaningful swordsmanship increase and lower, but still noticeable leadership increase. Switch to Cavalry and see Jousting increase a bunch and leadership some too.

Archer commanders may miss out a bit but that could just be seen as the disadvantage of commanding ranged troops with higher survivability rates.

Lorgan

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1185
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #3: October 09, 2014, 10:08:48 AM »
I agree, it would be a whole lot more fun if people who actively participate in battles could beat that guy who's been wasting gold with solitary academy training in a duel.
It could perhaps also be cause to decrease the randomness of duels a bit, since it'd decrease the gap between characters' skills.

De-Legro

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 3753
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #4: October 09, 2014, 10:14:41 AM »
Why do you assume that swordfighting is their "class skill"?
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Eldargard

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #5: October 09, 2014, 11:09:05 AM »
I guess I am defining a class skill as a skill that characters of a particular class can increase at the academy and/or through doing their jobs.

As a combat classed character (Warrior, Cavalier, Hero) I would expect Jousting, Swordsmanship and Leadership to be the class skills.

An Infiltrator, by today's standards, would tack Infiltration on to whatever their main class has for class skills as they still officially do that job and unofficially do their dirty work.

I am not all that familiar with all the various classes and skills though. I have only ever played Warriors, a priest or two and a Hero.

I really think that outlining what each classes "class skills" are and then looking to see if there are real opportunities for characters of each class to really increase these skills by doing their job is what I would like to see. The combat classes are just the most obvious classes that seem to be lacking in this regard from my perspective. I am sure that there are others.

Base Classes:
Warrior: Leadership, Swordfighting, Jousting #Little progression outside of academy
Priest: Oratory #Rapid progression outside of academy
Courtier: Bureaucracy #Not sure about progression outside of academy

Sub Classes
Diplomat: Base Class Skills + Oratory #Not sure about progression outside of academy
Cavalier: Base Class Skills + ?
Hero: Base Class Skills + ?
Trader: Base Class Skills + Trading #Not sure about progression outside of academy
Infiltrator Base Class Skills + Infiltration #Some progression outside of academy at high risk??

Eldargard

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #6: October 09, 2014, 11:10:10 AM »
As a side note, should battles start paying out in skill increases as I suggested, there is yet more incentive for war...

De-Legro

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 3753
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #7: October 09, 2014, 11:37:35 AM »
Infiltrators need sword skill to perform their duties. Warriors need swordfighting for nothing more then tournaments. The same is true for all classes with regards to jousting. Limiting the advance of these skills based on class helps provide some measure "fairness" for all characters classes in these events.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Kai

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #8: October 09, 2014, 11:43:36 AM »
While it is true that leadership is the primary skill of TLs, weapon skill is required not only for self defence, but to gain the confidence and respect of their troops.

At the risk of diluting the above point, some possible solutions:

* small chance of gaining appropriate skill during a training session, which is gold and time inefficient compared to academy.

* tweak battle skill gains. I think a character who fights a reasonable battle every week should have the appropriate skill around 50%, not ~20 as it is now.

De-Legro

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 3753
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #9: October 09, 2014, 12:04:01 PM »
While it is true that leadership is the primary skill of TLs, weapon skill is required not only for self defence, but to gain the confidence and respect of their troops.

At the risk of diluting the above point, some possible solutions:

* small chance of gaining appropriate skill during a training session, which is gold and time inefficient compared to academy.

* tweak battle skill gains. I think a character who fights a reasonable battle every week should have the appropriate skill around 50%, not ~20 as it is now.

A TL needs self defence neither more or less then any other class. I don't buy the respect of soldiers bit though. If they don't respect you for your noble heritage that sets you apart from mere normal men, then they are never going to respect you and also should probably be strung up from a tree.

Also recall that a defining feature of the Hero class is they fight from the front. This increases the chance they will be wounded as they actually get into the thick of the fighting habitually. This would imply that other character classes tend to avoid actual combat if they can, or at least the real gritty stuff.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Indirik

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 10821
  • No pressure, no diamonds.
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #10: October 09, 2014, 02:51:55 PM »
I would love it if the skills of characters in combat oriented classes would actually advance more rapidly by doing their job (fighting in battles). Many other classes, as I understand it, do this.
Skill advancement is related to two things:
1) the number of times that you perform the skill
2) the amount of time you spend doing it when you perform it

This should quickly make obvious the reason that many skill advance more quickly than swordfighting and leadership. Courtiers, priests, and diplomats can perform their skill continuously, with nearly all their hours, at no cost. This makes oratory and bureaucracy skill increase quick, easy, and free. Warriors need battles to work on their leadership, swordfighting, and jousting skills. Since you don't get battles twice a day, for days on end, and battles aren't free either, these skills are both expensive and time consuming to train. You either fight a lot of battles, or spend lots of time at the academy.

Quote
The combat oriented classes (Warrior, Cavalier, Hero) seem to be at a disadvantage here - as it stands real skill development for these classes require academy time!
Academy or tournaments. Constant battles helps, though.

Quote
I am not just referring to the percentage chance of such a skill rising from a battle compared to the percentage chance of the same skill rising from time at the academy. Unless these values are significantly different of course. Simply put a character can engage in a whole lot more academy training sessions that they can engage in battles over the course of a month or what not.
You sure can. There are two benefits to doing it on the battlefield, though:
1) In battle you can train both swordfighting/jousting and leadership at the same time.
2) Battle also earns you honor and prestige.

Quote
I do not really have a good suggestion regarding how this could happen. Anything that would allow the soldiering classes improve their class specific skills at a reasonable rate by just doing their job would be great. Something comparable to the rate at which other classes cat increase their class specific skills would be ideal!
Unlike the other skills, swordfighting doesn't really have that much of a direct impact on your character. Off-hand I'm not really sure how much effect raising your swordsmanship has on battle performance. After all, you're just one person in a unit of ~50 soldiers, in a battle that has potentially thousands of soldiers. The effectiveness of courtiers and diplomats is directly related to their skill level every time they use it.

Swordsmanship, though, is mostly used in tournaments and duels.
If at first you don't succeed, don't take up skydiving.

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7523
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #11: October 09, 2014, 02:56:37 PM »
Unlike the other skills, swordfighting doesn't really have that much of a direct impact on your character. Off-hand I'm not really sure how much effect raising your swordsmanship has on battle performance. After all, you're just one person in a unit of ~50 soldiers, in a battle that has potentially thousands of soldiers. The effectiveness of courtiers and diplomats is directly related to their skill level every time they use it.

Swordsmanship, though, is mostly used in tournaments and duels.

And fighting off infils.

Eirikr

  • Guest
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #12: October 10, 2014, 06:44:44 AM »
Unlike the other skills, swordfighting doesn't really have that much of a direct impact on your character. Off-hand I'm not really sure how much effect raising your swordsmanship has on battle performance. After all, you're just one person in a unit of ~50 soldiers, in a battle that has potentially thousands of soldiers. The effectiveness of courtiers and diplomats is directly related to their skill level every time they use it.

Swordsmanship, though, is mostly used in tournaments and duels.

Two quote piggybacks in a row!

Isn't one of the perks of being a Hero that you add "your own" CS to your unit and that this bonus is affected by Swordsmanship? As a corollary to that, since it's a Hero perk, I don't believe normal warriors gain any benefit from Swordsmanship in combat.

Similarly, I thought Jousting skill gave a bonus to Cavaliers. (The advantage of the Hero being that it applies to any unit and Cavaliers only to Cavalry.)

Also, as an aside, aren't our nobles generally not actual battle participants? More like Edward I and his entourage at the beginning here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wo9IC9yBdU Close enough to give orders and eventually get caught up, but not generally responsible for fighting (except heroes).

And yes, I realize Braveheart is a terrible historical reference.

Eldargard

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #13: October 10, 2014, 08:26:46 AM »
I can only say that, from my understanding, knights of middle age Europe were warriors, trained to fight from a young age and did fight in battles. Weather or not a knight fought had more to do with his position than his "class" I am guessing. A King, General or Marshal would be more likely to hang back and direct their army or armies. Most knights, I imagine, fought.

Game wise, I would imagine that the Hero is one who seeks the most dangerous, most critical part of the battle he can reach in an attempt to tip the scales and just plain be awesome. Other knights would be present in the battle but more likely to just deal with what comes their way.

I mean how much leading will a troop leader really be capable of once his unit has met the enemy in battle? Sure,  a troop leader has lines up his men, set the pace toward the enemy, watches/listens for command signals from his marshal as best he can through the fight, and calls the retreat when necessary. Most of the "leading" a troop leader does comes to an end once the armies collide.

Beyond that, I imagine wars are a tangled, unpredictable thing and I am pretty sure there is a reason why knights went to battle wearing Armour and brandishing weapons. When knights trained and even at tournaments, the focus was often on staying alive while killing or capturing your enemy.

I can not imagine a knight could participate in a dozen battles without also having to engage directly with the enemy a majority of the time. A Warrior doing his job will be fighting.

Eldargard

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 499
    • View Profile
Re: Skill Advancement
« Reply #14: October 10, 2014, 08:42:12 AM »
I am imagining something like this at this point.

If a character's unit does not encounter another unit in battle, 30% chance of Leadership increase, 10% chance nothing increases.

If a character's infantry, archer or mixed infantry unit encounters another unit in a battle, 60% change of Swordsmanship increase and 30% chance of Leadership increase, 10% chance nothing increases.

If a character leading cavalry meets another unit in battle while charging only, 60% change of Jousting increase and 30% chance of Leadership increase, 10% chance nothing increases.

If a character leading cavalry meets another unit in battle while charging and while not charging, 30% change of Jousting increase, 30% chance of swordfighting increase and 30% chance of Leadership increase, 10% chance nothing increases.

By meeting another unit in battle, I men that the two units engage in melee combat.

If the character is a hero, increase the chance of a fighting skill increase by 10% and decrease the chance of gaining leadership by 10%.

Any existing class rules that determine how a particular characters skills affect unit CS, willingness to stay and fight and all that remain.