Too much peace too much for Dwilight

[Chenier]

TMP has also been changed since it was first implemented: now, rather than hitting region stats directly, it simply makes your acceptable tax rate lower. It also makes your troops' training decay.

This should result in your being less able to fight, while still making it highly unlikely that TMP alone can kill you.

Less gold!? That frigging explains it! We've been getting TMP for a while in D'Hara now. Importing food in reasonable numbers is pricey as hell. I though the tax drops was because of the loss of my knight... So, to get this straight, I get less gold for our army because I must import so much, and because of this the army is too small to go fight anywhere, and therefore I get even *less* gold to buy my food with...

Please, not for Dwilight... 

[Jens Namtrah]

I'm pretty sure TMP has its origins in the year-long peace on EC, where Tom had to step in and threaten to lightning-bolt rulers if they didn't start some wars soon.

that may very well have been the original, original cause. when we picked it up again, and actually rolled it out, it was from the Atamara gridlock. But the code was already mostly there and just waiting to be finished, so you may be right.

Should we be punished because our struggle for survival doesn't involve a lot of battles through strength of arms, but rather diplomacy, initiative, heavy administration, and profitable trade agreements?

Does you diplomacy, administration and trade agreements involve all the new players, or just a lot of time on the Ruler and Banker channels?

In any case, Chenier, the monsters on Dwilight should be more than enough to keep you from having a problem, so unless you want to post the numbers to show otherwise, I think you  stop arguing just for the sake of argument and see how it is actually affecting you.

[Indirik]

... Tom had to step in and threaten to lightning-bolt rulers if they didn't start some wars soon.

He did more than threaten. At least four, maybe five rulers got bolted for that.

[Chenier]

that may very well have been the original, original cause. when we picked it up again, and actually rolled it out, it was from the Atamara gridlock. But the code was already mostly there and just waiting to be finished, so you may be right.

Does you diplomacy, administration and trade agreements involve all the new players, or just a lot of time on the Ruler and Banker channels?

In any case, Chenier, the monsters on Dwilight should be more than enough to keep you from having a problem, so unless you want to post the numbers to show otherwise, I think you  stop arguing just for the sake of argument and see how it is actually affecting you.

This is Dwilight, where war is unreasonable for most realms, and stupid for the rest.

Trade involves whoever wants it. Lords who don't care for it are at a high risk of frequent starvation. Those who do so repeatedly get revolted out of office. Knights can become traders and make good sums, and this is highly encouraged. Hell, I frequently send out offers to attract traders to settle down in our realm.

The knight who just wants to fight in wars should just get the hell out of Dwilight, it's a pretty stupid place to be if that's what one is expecting. The North has had a few wars, but they are nowhere as thrilling as the wars of other continents due to the nightmarish logistics involved.

And I have never seen a plea for war or conflict in D'Hara, since its founding, other than to absorb Shadovar from which it stemmed. By anyone. Quite the contrary, actually.

And our geography means we are rather safe from monster attacks. They are not nonexistent, but very rare by Dwilight standards, as most of our lands connect to fortified humanized territory.

Now, if the code considered starvation as battles, as far as the TMP code relating to taxes, it'd be more fair while remaining realistic. After all, we need that gold to feed them, and without the imports we pay with their gold, they would all starve (even more).

[Jens Namtrah]

This is Dwilight, where war is unreasonable for most realms, and stupid for the rest.

Trade involves whoever wants it. Lords who don't care for it are at a high risk of frequent starvation. Those who do so repeatedly get revolted out of office. Knights can become traders and make good sums, and this is highly encouraged. Hell, I frequently send out offers to attract traders to settle down in our realm.

The knight who just wants to fight in wars should just get the hell out of Dwilight, it's a pretty stupid place to be if that's what one is expecting. The North has had a few wars, but they are nowhere as thrilling as the wars of other continents due to the nightmarish logistics involved.

And I have never seen a plea for war or conflict in D'Hara, since its founding, other than to absorb Shadovar from which it stemmed. By anyone. Quite the contrary, actually.

And our geography means we are rather safe from monster attacks. They are not nonexistent, but very rare by Dwilight standards, as most of our lands connect to fortified humanized territory.

Now, if the code considered starvation as battles, as far as the TMP code relating to taxes, it'd be more fair while remaining realistic. After all, we need that gold to feed them, and without the imports we pay with their gold, they would all starve (even more).

Wow.

so you're just going to keep on pretending that we aren't telling you over and over and over that the monster battles are more than sufficient to keep TMP away, because you've found a nice juicy argument and you just want to argue, regardless of any sort of reality going on around you?

And our geography means we are rather safe from monster attacks.

I'm sure that someone with imagination enough to come up with the Blood Cult can figure out how to put together a small fighting force looking for glory who will wander off to help their neighbors with THEIR monster problem.

This is BATTLEmaster. If Tom took such drastic measures in East Island and Atamara to put BATTLE back into their games, do you think he intended to make a special exception for Dwilight?

Do you think the Rulers on East Island and Atamara didn't have their own special brand of excuses?

[Chenier]

Wow.

so you're just going to keep on pretending that we aren't telling you over and over and over that the monster battles are more than sufficient to keep TMP away, because you've found a nice juicy argument and you just want to argue, regardless of any sort of reality going on around you?

I'm sure that someone with imagination enough to come up with the Blood Cult can figure out how to put together a small fighting force looking for glory who will wander off to help their neighbors with THEIR monster problem.

This is BATTLEmaster. If Tom took such drastic measures in East Island and Atamara to put BATTLE back into their games, do you think he intended to make a special exception for Dwilight?

Do you think the Rulers on East Island and Atamara didn't have their own special brand of excuses?

After some thought, I decided it wasn't all that bad. After all, the new code seems to be exactly what I suggested a while back, without the realm-crippling effects anymore. I minor tweak for the tax tolerance to take into consideration other forms of struggle, such as starvation, would make me more than happy. It would remain realistic and fair.

Your arguments that "monsters are enough" is obviously invalid, as I keep getting these TMP reports. If you were correct, then I wouldn't be having the reports. The mere fact of having them proves you wrong.

We also don't have enough of an army to send them away without careful consideration. I bought over 550 golds worth of bushels this week, and I think this is purely through automatic purchases in my city, which excludes the many hundreds I spent on sending out caravans myself. The other cities are often starved, so they don't have much population nor production, so they don't produce much for the army. So would it really be reasonable that I spend the rest of my income just to go hunt monsters in foreign lands? My serfs have enough worries at home, they don't have the luxury of getting bored about lack of warfare, and they know that if they don't work extra-hard, they will face starvation.

Also, the "battle"master argument is poor. This is generally agreed upon. If BM was only about battle, then you wouldn't have traders, religions, ambassadors, and a whole bunch of other stuff. The game is about more than just battle. And if intense battle was really what was desired with Dwilight, then travel times would have to be reduced, seasons removed, and rogues turned off. Because Dwilight's geography is nothing like the others.

And truth be told, I always was bitter that everyone had to pay because of the lame players of EC and AT. None of these "problems" had ever existed on Beluaterra, where wars were purely player-driven (between and despite the invasions, who really reduced human conflicts instead of igniting them) and readily available. Nor the other continents at the time either. The problem was therefore with the people, and not the system.

[Foundation]

Wait wait wait, again, look to the realm around you.  Are *all* of them at active war?  Are *all* of them getting TMP?  Why not then?

[fodder]

can't go east to get your monsters?  must be some in qubel and eastwards. madina had lots of monsters (well.. that was like a year back or so i think), especially around panafau.

[Gustav Kuriga]

Wait wait wait, again, look to the realm around you.  Are *all* of them at active war?  Are *all* of them getting TMP?  Why not then?

I am saddened by this. Perhaps you had not heard. All realms of SA are at war with Caerwyn. Morek and Astrum (with some help from Libero, Corsanctum, and Summerdale) just crushed Averoth in a short war. Madina is at war with Aurvandil. The only realms not at war are Luria Nova, Barca, Asylon, Pian en Luries, Terran, and the Duchy of Fissoa. They are all in positions that are more open to rogue invasions than D'Hara, which only has to worry about two regions producing rogues (they don't produce nearly enough to stave off TMP). Barca and Asylon are at a size where they are too large to be immune to TMP, but too small to fight any of the large monster waves we see on Dwilight.

[Shizzle]

Saying TMP on Dwi is no problem because of the rogues seems ... not logical. I thought TMP was to encourage inter-realm strife, so what's the use for it on  Dwilight if you say from the very beginning your goals won't be met anyway?

I'm for the TMP system, but it seems to be missing it's point on Dwilight.

[Shenron]

I would very much support Chenier's idea of factoring in starvation. It really makes a lot of sense. From the player's point of view a starved realm is just too difficult a platform to wage war (both logistically and politically) and from the in-game perspective it just doesn't make sense that nobles would be expected to go and fight battles when they are already trying to feed their starving population with what little resources they have.

If realms are healthy however and are enjoying peace: make them collide!! 

[Indirik]

So, quick fix for any realm that is facing TMP: Move all your food around so some regions are starving. Presto! No more TMP penalties.

[Shenron]

So, quick fix for any realm that is facing TMP: Move all your food around so some regions are starving. Presto! No more TMP penalties.

Crap I didn't think of that.

Is there some way to get around this problem? I feel there should be a way for really incapacitated realms to be exempt from TMP.

[Jens Namtrah]

We also don't have enough of an army to send them away without careful consideration. I bought over 550 golds worth of bushels this week, and I think this is purely through automatic purchases in my city, which excludes the many hundreds I spent on sending out caravans myself.

I don't quite follow. What is your army doing?

More importantly, what are your non-Lord players doing?

The point of this code is to ensure that Lords and Councilmen don't get all tied up in their personal games and message channels, and keep the game fun for everyone. It may seem to be most directly concerned with inter-Realm warfare, and to a degree, it is, but it serves mainly as a constant reminder to those players in power that they shouldn't shut themselves off from the common, new nobles of their realm who also want to play and have fun. Those players generally get involved through warfare; it's what brought them to the game.

All I'm hearing from you is how tied up you are with starvation in "your city".

So, you're a Duke dealing with your personal problems. What are your common nobles doing all day, every day? Sitting around, maintaining your regions for you?

Why don't you post some of the numbers I keep asking you for, so we can actually tell if there is a problem or not. Because from the info you've given so far, you sound EXACTLY like the the people this code was written to counteract.

[Jens Namtrah]

it just doesn't make sense that nobles would be expected to go and fight battles when they are already trying to feed their starving population with what little resources they have.

depends on what sort of Lord you are. You're not starving - what do you care if peasants are starving? they breed like rabbits anyway, don't they? they lose a few children, they'll just make some more. you still take your taxes first, whether or not they have anything left over afterwards...

obviously you don't HAVE to play that, but I think it's a bit closer to the SMA than kind-hearted Lords running about like the Queen's surveymen in the British Raj. I can't picture a nobleman saying, "Gee, I'd like to suit up and go fight a battle, but who will feed these poor peasants? I think I'd better pass"