How to help Dwilight.

[GundamMerc]

Yes, even I, an arrogant prick, can realize when things are getting toxic because of stubbornness on my part. This thread is so that we have a place that isn't mucked down in an argument that has gone on for far too long. Anyways, here we go.

What problems are still there?

The player density issue has only really been solved for Luria. On average the number of characters, and thus players, per region is still about the same, being about 1.49 before the monster invasion and around 1.5 afterwards. Also, areas that were already low in population have started to completely collapse (looking at Morek and Astrum here). They don't have enough nobles for the regions that they have.

and what are the new problems that came with the changes?

Currently I would say that on Dwilight the issue now is that the map has become very linear in shape, meaning any politics are going to be stratified along those lines. It will be very hard for any realm to have a political relationship that isn't of an Alliance A vs Alliance B or Alliance A vs Nation B nature. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but it will be a lot harder for wars between 3rd parties to happen without involving the rest of the continent.

What we can do is improve the current situation to a)Keep the players that have stuck around and b)attract new/old players to the game

A) I would suggest, and I know how everyone has been saying that changing the maps will cause a lot of heartache and will be difficult to do; but I would suggest sinking the part of the island in the very north where Thulsoma used to be. Morek and Astrum are the only realms that have regions there, and Astrum went down to where Corsanctum used to be. Morek and Astrum both have too many regions for the number of nobles they have anyway, so they won't be as affected as, say, Fissoa would be if we cut off that island. Now I know what you're thinking, this sounds like I'm advocating just cutting off another part of the island, which is what got us in this mess in the first place. Not so fast. I would suggest then preceding to have the seas recede in two areas. The inlet between the Corsanctum peninsula and Aegir, as well as the sea surrounded by Desert of Silhouettes, the D'haran main island, and Garuck Udor. I would suggest the regions be fertile plains areas, as they would make the adjacent cities much easier to sustain as independent powers.

This would hopefully provide some balance to the map, as well as making war less of an undertaking.

[Eldargard]

On one hand, since monster hordes are what keep certain regions inaccessible, I see no reason why these hordes couldn't shift about. On the other, I am still not really convinced that changes like those proposed here would make much of a difference.

[De-Legro]

I'm not sure I see how taking away regions, only to place more does anything for player density. Making war on Dwilight more feasible I suppose is a good thing. I always thought that Dwilight was never designed to be just another island, I much preferred the days of the frontier realms that had more to worry about from rogue forces then what ever was occurring on the other side of the map. The loss of that setting has only made the design flaws of the map in regards to the core game more evident.

Personally I am against any action that targets regions and realms, no matter how logical the application may seem. I would prefer a in game event that determines what occurs, and allows those players and realms that put in the effort to avoid the worst of the effect. Give the characters some control over what is occurring.

[vonGenf]

On one hand, since monster hordes are what keep certain regions inaccessible, I see no reason why these hordes couldn't shift about.

I wonder if we could not reach of the same effects simply by moving the hordes around and shortening some of the sea routes rather than creating new lands? Like, instead of creating new rurals around Garuck Udor, remove the monster hordes from some of the rurals between Candiels ond Paisley on the coast and make them less 6 hours away from Garuck Udor by tweaking the sea zones.

[Antonine]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kfql275inpr7pej/BM%20world%20map.jpeg?dl=0

Based on my very rough and ready world map above, I have something of an idea.

If you were to sink the north of eastern Dwilight with floods, or evacuate it due to a monster invasion and then build a big wall on the map to separate it off, then hopefully you'd force all the SAers to move into the mountain region and form a concentrated SA state there.

With maybe a few region tweaks elsewhere (such as tweaking the Desert of Silhouettes and the Palm Sea to put rurals and townslands and maybe even an extra city or two in between the pair of them) you'd then have a concentrated area centred around the most densely populated realms but with enough townslands and cities to stop the Luria region from dominating the region, especially if you increased the populations of a few of the other cities to even things up.

Dwilight would be much, much smaller in terms of the area to play in but it could probably be done with only a very small loss of players since Astrum, Swordfell and Morek all have a common religious culture and could coexist happily in one realm.

[GundamMerc]

I'm not sure I see how taking away regions, only to place more does anything for player density. Making war on Dwilight more feasible I suppose is a good thing. I always thought that Dwilight was never designed to be just another island, I much preferred the days of the frontier realms that had more to worry about from rogue forces then what ever was occurring on the other side of the map. The loss of that setting has only made the design flaws of the map in regards to the core game more evident.

Personally I am against any action that targets regions and realms, no matter how logical the application may seem. I would prefer a in game event that determines what occurs, and allows those players and realms that put in the effort to avoid the worst of the effect. Give the characters some control over what is occurring.

The reason it helps is that it squashes the map down some while providing areas that are good for new realms. Currently Morek and Astrum are spread all the way to the north into regions that they literally could lose all at once and only one character would have to go lordless for any length of time. My idea isn't to solve player density directly, but to make the island geography better than it currently is. Dwilight is way too stretched out, leading to realms on either end that are completely isolated from the other end. Now that was fine when we had the west continent, so that there was always a realm that could compete from the western continent, but that is no longer the case.

As well, this would provide regions to feed the glut of cities that are in the Lurian area, as well as hopefully stopping the starve, population boom, starve cycle that happens so often on the D'Haran isles.

[Ossan]

I don't think we need to remove anymore land from Dwilight, but I am certainly in favour of giving it more. In fact with the ice age the planet is experiencing this could just be the effect (if somewhat delayed) from all that new ice forming! Turns out some of the seas around Dwilight are conveniently shallow and are now reclaimable.

If the ice ages ever end then the excuse for them not reflooding can simply be "magic, work of the gods".

[Sacha]

Dwilight would be much, much smaller in terms of the area to play in but it could probably be done with only a very small loss of players since Astrum, Swordfell and Morek all have a common religious culture and could coexist happily in one realm.

[Antonine]

Mixture of both. They'd squabble and fight but they wouldn't do that until they were mostly safely in one realm rather than just quitting en masse because they couldn't possible see themselves at home in Swordfell.

[De-Legro]

Mixture of both. They'd squabble and fight but they wouldn't do that until they were mostly safely in one realm rather than just quitting en masse because they couldn't possible see themselves at home in Swordfell.

I seem to recall that we Devs though something similar with the western migration. Forecasting player reaction is a fraught issue. This is partly why I am more in favour of things that progress in game and provide mechanisms for players to feel relevant. In general I would suggest you don't target certain realms using logic regarding their culture and player base. Geographical arguments are I feel a different matter, it ends up targeting realms sure, but not because of the actions, play styles or other elements of the player interaction.

[Dishman]

Since Dwilight is an RP island, I'd rather see something in-game influence island-wide events. Something akin to "Whatever army can battle their way to the Zuma decides" or some such. I think one of the problems with the monster invasion was the abruptness of it and the lack of ceremony. A great quest for all players, some island-wide RP events that tell a story...that would be neat. Something like that may not balance the game as well as omnipotent dev-touch, but it would at least give players control and the feeling of autonomy.

[Stoneward Family]

With maybe a few region tweaks elsewhere (such as tweaking the Desert of Silhouettes and the Palm Sea to put rurals and townslands and maybe even an extra city or two in between the pair of them) you'd then have a concentrated area centred around the most densely populated realms but with enough townslands and cities to stop the Luria region from dominating the region, especially if you increased the populations of a few of the other cities to even things up.

Dwilight would be much, much smaller in terms of the area to play in but it could probably be done with only a very small loss of players since Astrum, Swordfell and Morek all have a common religious culture and could coexist happily in one realm.

Why try to change the game to suit the realms currently in power? If Luria has control of all the towns and cities in the area don't just ask for more to be created. Go to war, fight for those towns and cities; make a name for your family and realm!

[Fleugs]

Whatever complaints you have about player retention, what have you done to make people stick around? I'm in Luria, and I can say that there is at least a handful of people who keep people connected to the realm on different levels. Only when you put in an effort, you get a return. I've been in more realm than one that was bleeding dry (a couple of them on Dwilight) and while people may have been complaining about their realm running dry, they were not at all trying to create a good and fun atmosphere to play in.

[GundamMerc]

Whatever complaints you have about player retention, what have you done to make people stick around? I'm in Luria, and I can say that there is at least a handful of people who keep people connected to the realm on different levels. Only when you put in an effort, you get a return. I've been in more realm than one that was bleeding dry (a couple of them on Dwilight) and while people may have been complaining about their realm running dry, they were not at all trying to create a good and fun atmosphere to play in.

People in Luria have it easy. Please, let's keep the talk about how Luria is somehow better at retention than other realms out of it. The majority of your growth is from refugees of other realms, not people who have stayed because "Luria's such a cool place". A huge percentage of your realm is staying purely because they want to make their own realm, not because they want to be in your realm.

Why try to change the game to suit the realms currently in power? If Luria has control of all the towns and cities in the area don't just ask for more to be created. Go to war, fight for those towns and cities; make a name for your family and realm!

For the same reason that I don't try to get realms to fight CE on Atamara. They're in such a dominant position, and the leading nobles there are so happy with the current status quo, that it'd be pointless. You do realize that the entirety of Dwilight is at war with Luria, right? And they're still losing.

Seriously, some (not saying all, but some) of the players from Luria who are commenting on this sound almost like people from the US who comment "why don't the people in Africa just get their act together?" (no, I'm not talking about Ebola, in case anyone wanted to take offense regarding that). It's both completely ignoring the circumstances that are causing the issues, and seen by those who do know the circumstances as an incredibly arrogant viewpoint by someone who more than likely doesn't have to deal with nearly as many problems on a daily basis as the ones they are casting judgement on.

[Eldargard]

Well, this is meant to be a player driven game so it really comes down to players utilizing their characters to change things. I do not thing that this game was ever meant to be controlled and molded by the devs to constantly ensue equal footing for all realms. If Cagilian Empire and Arcea happened without the devs stepping in, I doubt there is a really valid reason for the devs to step in here.

The only arguable reason I can think of is that Luria's strong position is a direct result of the changes made by the devs to increase player density. While it is true that Luria was not greatly impacted by this change I am willing to bet that one or two of the nations who are fighting against Luria also suffered little from the monster invasion.

I is my opinion that Luria's real strengths in this war are it's large player base and the fact that it is primarily in defense mode. If we had half the nobles we do I think that Luria would quickly fall. It is my opinion that the reason why we have so many players is because we see so much action. With 4+ realms coming at us we get to enjoy 4 times as many battles. I know that when I am looking for a place to start a new family i am always keen to find a country that is or will likely be involved n a lot of battles. I doubt i am the only one.

Further, up to now, Luria has been mostly on the defense. Most of our offensive actions involve short raids and the recapturing of lost lands. This means that our huge player base can quickly and easily refit and stay in fighting shape. Meanwhile half of our aggressors have to travel incredible distances to refit and even our neighboring enemies have some distance to travel for refits.

I can also attest to the active player base in Luria. It is bound to happen when you have so many players in a realm. All the same, players really seem to feel engaged, welcomed, included, and challenged here. So we not only have an incentive to join (lots of battles) we also have high retention.

So yes, things are stacked in Luria's favor right now - largely thanks to the entire continent (minus Swordfel) ganging up on us. All the same, I do not see this lasting. Even if Luria is victorious  I doubt that there is much motivation to take over all the other countries. Even if there was, there would undoubtedly be schisms and the like. Things would certainly change but I am not all that worried about it. I know that, as a player, I dread a Lurian  domination over Dwilight and am likely to take whatever action I can (within the bounds of my character and existing RP) to keep that from happening and I doubt I am alone.

Lastly, I really think that dev intervention should be kept to a minimum, especially when it comes to balancing power between realms. If we started having the devs step in and "rebalancing" things every time a country became strong, there would no longer be a reason to even play. Why try to build a strong nation and battle others of key regions when, if successful, the devs just change things so we lost that strength? Why try to fight against rising powers and strengthening our realm when we know that should the enemy become too strong the devs will just nerf them and buff us? This is just a bad path to go down in my opinion.