Placeholder Rule

[Shizzle]

There's a rule against placeholders for titles. Am I correct to believe the rule does not prevent Regencies?

And that it is rather intended to prevent Duke Kepler to safeguard his title from losing it through, say, captivity by having Lord Kester claim it - who intends to step down and see it returned to Duke Kepler at a later date?

[GundamMerc]

It in fact does prevent that.

[Anaris]

If your Ruler position happens to be called Regent, that's fine.

If you actually expect your ruler to step down when the "rightful" King returns (and this is a thing that is actually plausible within a reasonable timeframe) that's not.

Basically, once someone holds a position, they are the rightful holder of that position.

[Shizzle]

If your Ruler position happens to be called Regent, that's fine.

If you actually expect your ruler to step down when the "rightful" King returns (and this is a thing that is actually plausible within a reasonable timeframe) that's not.

Basically, once someone holds a position, they are the rightful holder of that position.

Meaning you cannot force the placeholder to step down? Or meaning nobody could become Ruler to lead the realm through some reforms after which he/she steps down and a new King is elected?

To be clear, there isn't an absent King we're waiting for. Someone would become King fully knowing it's only a temprary thing (though obviously he/she could refuse to step down and seize power)

[GundamMerc]

Meaning you cannot force the placeholder to step down? Or meaning nobody could become Ruler to lead the realm through some reforms after which he/she steps down and a new King is elected?

To be clear, there isn't an absent King we're waiting for. Someone would become King fully knowing it's only a temprary thing (though obviously he/she could refuse to step down and seize power)

Meaning you can't have a placeholder period.

[Shizzle]

This isn't helping as the rule still is ambiguous.

[OFaolain]

The problem is the idea that a title can be held temporarily in reserve for another individual, for example a character that is paused for two weeks while the player goes on vacation. If that player is your Ruler and you elect a new one then that character is not entitled to receive his job back and it is against the rules to act as if he is entitled to it even if the election was held with the understanding that the title will be temporary. Basically, possession is 10/10ths of the law.

At least, that's my understanding of the rule and hopefully someone can confirm.

[De-Legro]

In general accepting the role and title, with the expectation to step down in the "near future" for any realm makes a mockery of the oath involved and the importance of the title. I understand that the situation posed by the OP is not the typically, maintain the region till the old Lord is free, but for me it does not respect the position.

[Indirik]

If you do't intend to keep the title, then don't take it.
If you don't want someone else to keep the title, don't give it to them.

(Note that for positions subject to regular elections, you can change that to "...keep the title until the next regular election".)

The placeholder rule is intended to prevent situation where Alice loses the position (prison, wound, etc.), and Bob is given the title until Kepler gets back in two or three days. If Bob keeps the title until the regular election two weeks later, declines to run, and Alice wins in an unopposed landslide, that is NOT placeholding.

If Sir Reformer doesn't intend to keep the rulership under the new regime, he shouldn't be running for it. There is absolutely no purpose served by running for ruler in order to be the one to click a few links and step down. Elect the guy you want to lead the new regime, and have him do it. Of course, if you're switching to a regularly elected ruler position, you could elect anyone to click the links, then let him simply not run in the next election.

[GundamMerc]

This isn't helping as the rule still is ambiguous.

I'm honestly not getting what is ambiguous about the rule. Don't have someone hold onto a position for someone else, period, and you won't have an issue. As Indirik said, just don't run in the election if the character does not want the position.

[Constantine]

I'm honestly not getting what is ambiguous about the rule. Don't have someone hold onto a position for someone else, period, and you won't have an issue. As Indirik said, just don't run in the election if the character does not want the position.

You've not been listening.
Shizzle was specifically asking if admins would still frown upon a noble who does not hold onto a position for someone else, but rather uses it for some plans of his own and then announces an actual election (when the majority of the realm is back from the holidays).

[Shizzle]

You've not been listening.
Shizzle was specifically asking if admins would still frown upon a noble who does not hold onto a position for someone else, but rather uses it for some plans of his own and then announces an actual election (when the majority of the realm is back from the holidays).

I'm not very good at explaning things, am I?

Lastly I'll point out that Fissoa at one point was governed by a line of Regents who were waiting for the return of a true Grand Duke. I am correct in seeing no issue with this as long as (a) the True GD is an undetermined person at the moment of ascension by the Regent, and (b) the Regent is actually being a ruler so that the difference is purely RP-based. Nothing was being done to pressure the Regents in any other way than IG politics.

[Eldargard]

Lastly I'll point out that Fissoa at one point was governed by a line of Regents who were waiting for the return of a true Grand Duke. I am correct in seeing no issue with this as long as (a) the True GD is an undetermined person at the moment of ascension by the Regent, and (b) the Regent is actually being a ruler so that the difference is purely RP-based. Nothing was being done to pressure the Regents in any other way than IG politics.

I think that those are two important factors. If your does not take the rule position with the thought of "I'll take care of this until Jimmy John is ready to take back the throne" or "someone from the John family" or any other specific person or group of people, it is hard to argue that you are being a place holder.

Likewise, if your character takes the position with every intent of being the ruler and not just keep the seat warm for another, it is hard to argue that you are being a place holder. Regardless of the title or back story any character that takes on the ruler position must believe, without reservation, that they ARE the ruler with all the  rights and responsibilities that come with it.

Regarding the duration of ones rule and the circumstances surrounding a ruler stepping down, I do not think there can be a single good answer. As long as it is not "Now that  PERSON X wants the throne I will step down because they really have more right to it than me", I find most anything acceptable. "I died", "I am too old for this", "I want to be the judge instead", "I have accomplished all that I care to" or even "This really isn't my thing" are all fine with me. I also do not care if one rules for 1 turn or 10 years.

Just my thoughts on the matter!

[De-Legro]

I'm not very good at explaning things, am I?

Lastly I'll point out that Fissoa at one point was governed by a line of Regents who were waiting for the return of a true Grand Duke. I am correct in seeing no issue with this as long as (a) the True GD is an undetermined person at the moment of ascension by the Regent, and (b) the Regent is actually being a ruler so that the difference is purely RP-based. Nothing was being done to pressure the Regents in any other way than IG politics.

Yes, Fissoa is not the only realm to have a regent. There is no issue with this
as it is a RP device.

You've not been listening.
Shizzle was specifically asking if admins would still frown upon a noble who does not hold onto a position for someone else, but rather uses it for some plans of his own and then announces an actual election (when the majority of the realm is back from the holidays).

I believe elections were covered in another recent thread about placeholders. If I recall correctly this is okay in principle, since you are in theory no stepping down to allow the "real" title holder to takeover, you are simply abiding by the result of a IG mechanic.