Plans you have for if the war ends...

[Chenier]

*cough*League*cough*

Pfff. That's like saying AT's northern alliance (whatever it was called) was some kind of hegemony because they ganged up on CE, it's completely ridiculous.

Luria created the League. Its member realms have a long history of letting each other rot in various conflicts. Just now, a Fissoan lord shut down an astroist temple. They aren't likely to turn on each other right away, but if Luria doesn't threaten to take control, they wouldn't automatically band together either.

[Constantine]

Just now, a Fissoan lord shut down an astroist temple.

Oh my.
Do you think this could stir some !@#$ up?

[Chenier]

Oh my.
Do you think this could stir some !@#$ up?

If Luria agreed to a white peace? Maybe. Otherwise, no, it'll just be ignored and everyone will pretend it never happened.

[Lorgan]

It's not ridiculous, you are uniting 2/3 of the continent's resources vs 1/6.

The only thing that's allowing Luria to fend off the total spankfest that's thrown upon it are the nobles it has. So either you break Luria, or you concede that it's the League that'll have to give up land, not Luria. And if you think Luria will dominate the world with a puppet in Nifelheim, you've seriously had too many nightmares about us.

Edit: Also, why would we even want a puppet? And who would even agree to it? And even if so, what do Fissoa and D'Hara have to fear from it?

[Anaris]

Luria has never been good at projecting force—which is partly a function of its location. In order to reach a neighbour, it has to cross a mountain range, an ocean strait, or a desert.

Luria is powerful now primarily because it is able to fight close to home. I know it's actually managed to do some damage abroad, but that's a far cry from Luria, all on its own, deciding to go out and, say, bust some heads on the Madina island, or even march into Flowrestown.

It can be maddening, seeing all the people who fight a war till they're losing, then have them say, "Oh, we should stop now, but you need to give us back the land you took first." (Even "we should stop now before you can take any more of our land" is pretty frustrating.) Not because it's not a realistic thing for them to want, but because it's not a realistic thing for them to expect. Sure, you can ask for it—but you'd damn well better be willing to make some meaningful concessions if you are losing a war.

[Chenier]

It's not ridiculous, you are uniting 2/3 of the continent's resources vs 1/6.

The only thing that's allowing Luria to fend off the total spankfest that's thrown upon it are the nobles it has. So either you break Luria, or you concede that it's the League that'll have to give up land, not Luria. And if you think Luria will dominate the world with a puppet in Nifelheim, you've seriously had too many nightmares about us.

Edit: Also, why would we even want a puppet? And who would even agree to it? And even if so, what do Fissoa and D'Hara have to fear from it?

You can't be serious?

You are serious.

If you put a puppet in Morek, who'll stop Luria from stomping over D'Hara?

Luria has never been good at projecting force—which is partly a function of its location. In order to reach a neighbour, it has to cross a mountain range, an ocean strait, or a desert.

Luria is powerful now primarily because it is able to fight close to home. I know it's actually managed to do some damage abroad, but that's a far cry from Luria, all on its own, deciding to go out and, say, bust some heads on the Madina island, or even march into Flowrestown.

It can be maddening, seeing all the people who fight a war till they're losing, then have them say, "Oh, we should stop now, but you need to give us back the land you took first." (Even "we should stop now before you can take any more of our land" is pretty frustrating.) Not because it's not a realistic thing for them to want, but because it's not a realistic thing for them to expect. Sure, you can ask for it—but you'd damn well better be willing to make some meaningful concessions if you are losing a war.

They sailed all the way to Morek... why couldn't they land on the Madinian isle?

Also, I heard Morek finally defeated your forces in the North, so they should be taking back these regions before you are able to return. Doesn't sound like the League would need to ask Luria for any land at all, and hardly feels like we are losing. Only thing we lost is the beachhead and the progress that had been made towards an invasion, but we are no worse off than when we started.

[Lorgan]

If you put a puppet in Morek, who'll stop Luria from stomping over D'Hara?

So the way you see it, there can never be peace with Luria.

And again, no puppetry going on here.

Also, I heard Morek finally defeated your forces in the North, so they should be taking back these regions before you are able to return. Doesn't sound like the League would need to ask Luria for any land at all, and hardly feels like we are losing. Only thing we lost is the beachhead and the progress that had been made towards an invasion, but we are no worse off than when we started.

Fine, let's continue the war then. You're the ones complaining about it.

[vonGenf]

Since I've been back on Dwilight I've seen:

• Frequent battles
• Uncertain outcomes
• Realms safe in their existence (no one is roflstomping their way to anyone's capital)
• Actual deep-seated RP rationales for being at war
• Both internal and external dynamics
• A non-blocked horizon where no one can be 100% certain what the maps will look like in 6 months
• People with original ideas about what the map should look like and the willingness to fight for it

Which is all good. I don't get why either side is complaining. Keep fighting! This is what BM should be like.

[Fleugs]

Chénier, sometimes you are really dense. My implication that the League is a hegemony (like Lorgan's implication) serves one purpose. To let you open your eyes and realize that what you write down half the time is pure nonsense.

Luria sees the League as a future hegemony and the League sees Luria as a future hegemony. And both views are wrong. So stop claiming "Luria needs to die or they will rule Dwilight!" much like we will not go say the League needs to be converted into puppets or Luria would die. That's nonsense. Every time you go and claim that Luria is too strong for Dwilight and will destroy whoever it can, you may feel very free to consider yourself on the level of a Westboro Baptists Church preacher. Seriously, listen to yourself. Do you have some severe form of paranoia that you think D'Hara is doomed to die by the hand of Luria? The simple fact that you claim Luria is creating a puppet up North (which it isn't) or is setting up a rule over all of Dwilight (yeah, right) is ridiculous.

[Chenier]

Chénier, sometimes you are really dense. My implication that the League is a hegemony (like Lorgan's implication) serves one purpose. To let you open your eyes and realize that what you write down half the time is pure nonsense.

Luria sees the League as a future hegemony and the League sees Luria as a future hegemony. And both views are wrong. So stop claiming "Luria needs to die or they will rule Dwilight!" much like we will not go say the League needs to be converted into puppets or Luria would die. That's nonsense. Every time you go and claim that Luria is too strong for Dwilight and will destroy whoever it can, you may feel very free to consider yourself on the level of a Westboro Baptists Church preacher. Seriously, listen to yourself. Do you have some severe form of paranoia that you think D'Hara is doomed to die by the hand of Luria? The simple fact that you claim Luria is creating a puppet up North (which it isn't) or is setting up a rule over all of Dwilight (yeah, right) is ridiculous.

To be equally childish, I'll just go ahead and say "no, you are dense".

I've never claimed Luria has to die. I'm not even claiming it should accept surrender. What's being brought up is a white peace. Nobody loses anything.

"Our colony is not a puppet realm" is just a load of horse crap invaders like to throw around. They almost always end up a puppet realm. Luria tried to take over D'Hara on a number of times. They did that with Fissoa too. Swordfell is filled with people who would love to be a part of Luria. Now they want to carve out Morek. But noooooo, Luria obviously doesn't want to tell others how to live. How could I be so dense? All luria wants is to host some opera and do some gardening.

[Anaris]

But noooooo, Luria obviously doesn't want to tell others how to live.

Y'know, Chénier, I can't speak for the people currently in power, but 90% of what Alanna always wanted from the realms she tried to vassalize was...that they acknowledge her as Empress. That was pretty much it. So long as realms within the Lurian Empire didn't actively work against the interests of Luria itself, she wasn't interested in interfering much.

...D'Hara's a different story, though. As far as she was concerned, D'Hara had to die.

[Lorgan]

I've never claimed Luria has to die. I'm not even claiming it should accept surrender. What's being brought up is a white peace. Nobody loses anything.

White peace = Luria signs a peace treaty with EVERYONE. In other words: "Let's defeat them with boredom!"

[Chenier]

White peace = Luria signs a peace treaty with EVERYONE. In other words: "Let's defeat them with boredom!"

Luria can try to colonize the West too. Help out the exiles. Not necessarily EVERYONE either, really, Swordfell needs not be mentionned if Luria doesn't want them to be...

[Graeth]

So the League can't win the war because of the huge density of nobles on Luria, but the war is one of the main reasons keeping those nobles bunched up together and not half a continent away. Hmmm

Also, when those realms fought against the monster invasion, at least in Asylon, it was in heavily bottled up formations, like the entirety of the realm in one location. Asylon itself was about the size Luria is now. Even then the monster horde was pretty unstoppable. With unlimited resources you might be able to support a city and maybe a townsland or two which would always need to be filled with nobles, but they would forever be reliant on a continuous flow of outside help and they could never enter into war with other player realms. It would take a very specific kind of person to want to play in a realm like that and it is a bit unfair to assume most of the refugees would find such a situation amenable. This recolonizing the West as simple solution seems like an extremely dense idea for those that had to give up their lands during the closing of the West by the devs. The devs intentionally made those lands inhospitable for realms. If it would be possible, most of us would still be there. It isn't as if we didn't try.

[Lorgan]

Luria can try to colonize the West too. Help out the exiles.

Maybe, if the exiles want to go there. Though like Graeth said, it's probably not very realistic to think you can conquer yourself an actual realm in that place and sustain it. The best option would be a semi-independent Duchy I think. Or maybe the island of Libidizzed could work as a truly independent realm, and go from there.

Not necessarily EVERYONE either, really, Swordfell needs not be mentionned if Luria doesn't want them to be...

Ok so here we'd not be breaking a peace treaty exactly. Basically what you're saying is, leave us alone and go stomp on Swordfell. Not really that great for the overall fun of Dwilight I'd say. Just better for your realm.