Author Topic: Attack on Sasrhas!  (Read 14741 times)

Hyral

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #60: January 14, 2015, 02:26:38 AM »
Wait, what?

If memory serves, weren't you all on Arcaea's side during the war (Antonine excluded, sort of)? Now you think Arcaea overpowering everyone is a bad idea? Obviously I wasn't a fan of the empire model, and I've butted heads with Velax a few times, but he didn't do this by himself. None of you did anything to stop Arcaea dominating when it served your characters, and I don't want to hear that it wouldn't have made sense IC if you're telling Velax that he as a player needs to consider the island dynamic over his own IC agenda. I apologize if I'm coming off as a jerk here, and I don't disagree that Arcaea's size and influence is a the problem for FEI, but I am going to say that you really don't have a right to complain about the state of things when you knowingly contributed to making it that way.

Okay. Rant concluded. Going back to the happiness that is SI.

De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #61: January 14, 2015, 02:41:48 AM »
Wait, what?

If memory serves, weren't you all on Arcaea's side during the war (Antonine excluded, sort of)? Now you think Arcaea overpowering everyone is a bad idea? Obviously I wasn't a fan of the empire model, and I've butted heads with Velax a few times, but he didn't do this by himself. None of you did anything to stop Arcaea dominating when it served your characters, and I don't want to hear that it wouldn't have made sense IC if you're telling Velax that he as a player needs to consider the island dynamic over his own IC agenda. I apologize if I'm coming off as a jerk here, and I don't disagree that Arcaea's size and influence is a the problem for FEI, but I am going to say that you really don't have a right to complain about the state of things when you knowingly contributed to making it that way.

Okay. Rant concluded. Going back to the happiness that is SI.

You realise that there is a difference between the fun of establishing a situation (arguably forming an empire was fun for many people) and the fun of then maintaining the system? The empire model also an aside of the actual conversation, which is relative power of realms. Even without the empire Arcaea would still be in a dominate position that arguably lessen the fun for the rest of the continent.

You also miss that Delvin isn't telling Velax what his objectives need to be. Velax listed his own objectives which was making some OOC decisions in order to shake up the continent, IE generate fun and interest. Delvin merely pointed out that his objective to achieve that is hindered by his also valid objective to maintain Arcaea as is. In other words his second objective, is in Delvin opinion, doing more to destroy the chance of achieving the first, then any action Velax may take to counter the second objective. So it is a matter of priorities, Velax is certainly entitled to focus on the fun of Arcaea first and foremost, but when it comes at the cost of fun continent wide, you will understand people will then take issue with him also claiming to be working to increase fun continent wide.

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Velax

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #62: January 14, 2015, 02:46:09 AM »
Arcaea's been the biggest, baddest realm on the Far East for more than five years now. What, exactly, has changed now that it's suddenly creating boredom and stagnation when it didn't before?

Well, boo hoo, you might not be an ideal realm. Guess what? Neither are any of the rest of us on the continent.

What I read here is that you're all for doing things for OOC reasons to make the FEI more fun, until it's actually going to reduce your personal fun.

I guarantee you, the one thing that would increase fun on the FEI more than any other is to split up Arcaea. Until and unless that happens, anything you do may have marginal effects, but it cannot make the island dynamic.

Arcaea might be more fun and more successful as the biggest realm on the continent, with fully a third of the entire continent's regions and players. But the Far East as a whole is poorer because of it, and if you really mean what you say about making the Far East more fun and dynamic, you need to start factoring a split of Arcaea into your plans.

So to increase your fun, I should reduce the fun of the 30 other players that my character is directly responsible for? No. It isn't my job to make things interesting for your realm. That's your job. I'm doing my best to make things more interesting for the Far East, but I'll be damned if I cripple my realm and the fun for the players of Arcaea.

GundamMerc

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #63: January 14, 2015, 03:03:48 AM »
Arcaea's been the biggest, baddest realm on the Far East for more than five years now. What, exactly, has changed now that it's suddenly creating boredom and stagnation when it didn't before?

So to increase your fun, I should reduce the fun of the 30 other players that my character is directly responsible for? No. It isn't my job to make things interesting for your realm. That's your job. I'm doing my best to make things more interesting for the Far East, but I'll be damned if I cripple my realm and the fun for the players of Arcaea.

Who said that splitting your realm into an Arcaean civil war would lead to less fun for your players? I personally would love a civil war, few events provide so much narrative as that.

Anaris

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #64: January 14, 2015, 03:29:32 AM »
Arcaea's been the biggest, baddest realm on the Far East for more than five years now. What, exactly, has changed now that it's suddenly creating boredom and stagnation when it didn't before?

There's no one left on the continent who's actively seeking to oppose Arcaea. All the Free Realms have either been destroyed, or surrendered to the Empire. I'd say that's a pretty big difference.

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So to increase your fun, I should reduce the fun of the 30 other players that my character is directly responsible for? No. It isn't my job to make things interesting for your realm. That's your job. I'm doing my best to make things more interesting for the Far East, but I'll be damned if I cripple my realm and the fun for the players of Arcaea.

First of all, not just mine personally, but that of the other 50 players on the continent.

Secondly, unusually enough, I agree with GundamMerc. Just because you're doing something that's not in the best interests of Arcaea as a realm doesn't mean that the players in Arcaea will be having less fun.

Finally, I wouldn't even be talking about this if you hadn't just come on the ruler channel and the forum speaking strongly OOC about the virtues of adjusting your plans and playstyle in order to increase the fun for the entire continent. Like De-Legro said, if that is an objective of yours, you need to at least acknowledge that it is in direct conflict with your other objective of maintaining Arcaea's power, even if you then decide that maintaining Arcaea's power is more important to you than maximizing the fun of the Far East.

(And I should certainly add, it's not like that would put you in some kind of exclusive club. I've never sacrificed a realm I ruled for the fun of the continent, either, nor do I know offhand of anyone who has...but then, I've never been the ruler of the single powerhouse realm of a continent in a time when that continent was in crisis. If I was, I can't honestly say what my decision would be.)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 03:50:10 AM by Anaris »
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Hyral

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #65: January 14, 2015, 04:15:11 AM »
You realise that there is a difference between the fun of establishing a situation (arguably forming an empire was fun for many people) and the fun of then maintaining the system?

Of course? But I believe it is incredibly short-sighted to think that the fun of establishing the system wouldn't lead to the crippling effect of maintaining it, if not by intent, then by the nature of the beast.

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The empire model also an aside of the actual conversation, which is relative power of realms. Even without the empire Arcaea would still be in a dominate position that arguably lessen the fun for the rest of the continent.

They're quite related. Other realms embracing the empire has allowed Arcaea to stay powerful. It's big because too few took the opportunity to oppose it when there was a window to do so. Now Arcaea is supposed to break up because no one tried to take a bite out it? And is being told this by the people who didn't take a bite out of it? If you don't want overbearing realms in this game you have to start wars, join wars, take regions, not hope somebody is going to hit a balancing button for you once you help them win. That is an incredibly unhealthy expectation that goes beyond the FEI.

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So it is a matter of priorities, Velax is certainly entitled to focus on the fun of Arcaea first and foremost, but when it comes at the cost of fun continent wide, you will understand people will then take issue with him also claiming to be working to increase fun continent wide.

I think there is no merit in complaining about the guy running things or the way he runs things when you put him there knowing that this is exactly how it would be because it's what he advertised from the beginning as his style of fun. It irks me to no end, that while I thought there were simply more people in favor of the Arcaean experiment than not, and that it was a system people were going to have fun trying to play, that apparently folks were just doing what was easy at the time while hoping someone was going to fix it for them later. To me this is the opposite of the way BM was intended to be played.

Anger!

De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #66: January 14, 2015, 04:36:39 AM »
Of course? But I believe it is incredibly short-sighted to think that the fun of establishing the system wouldn't lead to the crippling effect of maintaining it, if not by intent, then by the nature of the beast.

They're quite related. Other realms embracing the empire has allowed Arcaea to stay powerful. It's big because too few took the opportunity to oppose it when there was a window to do so. Now Arcaea is supposed to break up because no one tried to take a bite out it? And is being told this by the people who didn't take a bite out of it? If you don't want overbearing realms in this game you have to start wars, join wars, take regions, not hope somebody is going to hit a balancing button for you once you help them win. That is an incredibly unhealthy expectation that goes beyond the FEI.

I think there is no merit in complaining about the guy running things or the way he runs things when you put him there knowing that this is exactly how it would be because it's what he advertised from the beginning as his style of fun. It irks me to no end, that while I thought there were simply more people in favor of the Arcaean experiment than not, and that it was a system people were going to have fun trying to play, that apparently folks were just doing what was easy at the time while hoping someone was going to fix it for them later. To me this is the opposite of the way BM was intended to be played.

Anger!

When the experiment started, which since I was playing there back then and was part of the Arcaea ruling council, back long before Velax rose to any sort of power, it was started in an atmosphere where the client states would, if united, be far more powerful then Arcaea. The experiement never made Arcaea stronger in an absolute sense, indeed like all of FEI is has weakened considerable in absolute terms. Due however to other factors, many outside of the control of anyone in power now, there remains now power base like was envisioned when we created the concept of the empire.

But again you miss the point. While people might not like our FEI has turned out, that is hardly a unique thing. Continents often evolve in a way that many dislike. The umbrage was purely due to previous comments from Velax that implied that his focus was improving FEI as a continent, when in peoples opinion his course of action was the single biggest hurdle to achieving that.

Personally it doesn't bother me about the Empire. I am happy to see that something I worked with Bedwyr and others so long ago has actually grown momentum of its own even when the majority of the principle players that initiated it left. I simply attempted to explain that you are viewing the complainant from a odd trajectory.

They're quite related. Other realms embracing the empire has allowed Arcaea to stay powerful. It's big because too few took the opportunity to oppose it when there was a window to do so. Now Arcaea is supposed to break up because no one tried to take a bite out it? And is being told this by the people who didn't take a bite out of it? If you don't want overbearing realms in this game you have to start wars, join wars, take regions, not hope somebody is going to hit a balancing button for you once you help them win. That is an incredibly unhealthy expectation that goes beyond the FEI.


Please, you show a complete lack of knowledge regarding the history here. There was a time when OW was the ONLY realm allied with Arcaea in bringing this about, Cathay was neutral, Kindara likewise and every other realm was united against Arcaea. Arcaea was fighting a war on two fronts and just managing to hold off loss of land. Plenty of people over the years attempted to fight against this.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 04:40:11 AM by De-Legro »
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Hyral

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #67: January 14, 2015, 06:09:10 AM »
But again you miss the point. While people might not like our FEI has turned out, that is hardly a unique thing.

No, I agree that it's not a unique thing.

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Continents often evolve in a way that many dislike.

Because we allow a nonsense mindset like that of this case to inform our decisions.

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Personally it doesn't bother me about the Empire.

I don't have a horse in that race anymore. The reaction to it, after everything, is what's killing me.

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I simply attempted to explain that you are viewing the complainant from a odd trajectory.

I recognize that it may be an odd objection, but to me this issue is the embodiment of some festering core problem in our approach to gameplay and the reason that hardly anyone is happy with anything despite the fact that we control everything. And I am going to rage about it!

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Please, you show a complete lack of knowledge regarding the history here. There was a time when OW was the ONLY realm allied with Arcaea in bringing this about, Cathay was neutral, Kindara likewise and every other realm was united against Arcaea. Arcaea was fighting a war on two fronts and just managing to hold off loss of land. Plenty of people over the years attempted to fight against this.

You know I was in Arcaea/the Noca with you at that time, right? And Kindara. I'm not talking about the entire history of the FEI here. I'm talking about when people all over started really whining about Arcaean hegemony around the hearthright war, and then decided that the best course of action would be to...side with Arcaea. And now nobody who's left likes the playfield and Arcaea should break up for the sake of everyone's fun. That's insane. If people didn't want them to win and continue to be this dominant they should have done something other than help them win. Could they have succeeded? Who knows! But that's how it works. You don't get to expect the result of going to war against a realm and the result of allying with them to be the same in the end. You don't get to expect a dominant realm to downsize regardless of whether or not you put any effort into making it smaller.

De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #68: January 14, 2015, 06:13:32 AM »
No, I agree that it's not a unique thing.

Because we allow a nonsense mindset like that of this case to inform our decisions.

I don't have a horse in that race anymore. The reaction to it, after everything, is what's killing me.

I recognize that it may be an odd objection, but to me this issue is the embodiment of some festering core problem in our approach to gameplay and the reason that hardly anyone is happy with anything despite the fact that we control everything. And I am going to rage about it!

You know I was in Arcaea/the Noca with you at that time, right? And Kindara. I'm not talking about the entire history of the FEI here. I'm talking about when people all over started really whining about Arcaean hegemony around the hearthright war, and then decided that the best course of action would be to...side with Arcaea. And now nobody who's left likes the playfield and Arcaea should break up for the sake of everyone's fun. That's insane. If people didn't want them to win and continue to be this dominant they should have done something other than help them win. Could they have succeeded? Who knows! But that's how it works. You don't get to expect the result of going to war against a realm and the result of allying with them to be the same in the end. You don't get to expect a dominant realm to downsize regardless of whether or not you put any effort into making it smaller.

Sure you can. We are all players of the game and ideally when the game has the player base problem it currently does you can expect long term high profile players to perhaps take a game wide view based on the current situation. We can not really afford for yet more continents to stagnate just because the dominate power is having fun, regardless of how the dominate power came to be. You can't FORCE them to, but you can certainly put across a point of view that prioritises this, especially when the player has expressed that such a thing is one of his goals.
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Velax

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #69: January 14, 2015, 06:24:10 AM »
First of all, not just mine personally, but that of the other 50 players on the continent.

Oh, you mean don't appreciate when someone accuses you of doing something for your own gain when you're actually thinking of more than just yourself? Like when you accused me of putting my personal fun above that of the continent?

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Finally, I wouldn't even be talking about this if you hadn't just come on the ruler channel and the forum speaking strongly OOC about the virtues of adjusting your plans and playstyle in order to increase the fun for the entire continent. Like De-Legro said, if that is an objective of yours, you need to at least acknowledge that it is in direct conflict with your other objective of maintaining Arcaea's power, even if you then decide that maintaining Arcaea's power is more important to you than maximizing the fun of the Far East.

But again you miss the point. While people might not like our FEI has turned out, that is hardly a unique thing. Continents often evolve in a way that many dislike. The umbrage was purely due to previous comments from Velax that implied that his focus was improving FEI as a continent, when in peoples opinion his course of action was the single biggest hurdle to achieving that.

So what you're both saying is that you wouldn't have made a peep if I did nothing at all, but because I'm trying to do something to help the Far East, but not sacrificing everything that has been built up over the last five-eight years to "maximise" everyone else's fun, you get to jump up and down and criticise?

I'll remind you that it's Arcaea that loses with what I've done. I've essentially tossed away two alliances and multiple IC friendships built up over years that would have allowed Arcaea to completely dominate the island with no chance whatsoever to fall out of power. Arcaea isn't the massive powerhouse it once was and the loss of those alliances leaves the realm more vulnerable that you obviously know. But if any effort I make isn't enough for you unless I deliberately tear down what took years to build, then you know what? Too. [email protected]#$ing. Bad.

altamira

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #70: January 14, 2015, 09:01:35 AM »
Valex's should do what he does. I think any change is going to have to come from somewhere else anyway.  If I was a duke in Arcaea I would be thinking about the possibility of the independent city states of Arcaea or even just going off and starting a war with just my duchy.  If I was a ruler of any other land I would be trying very hard to make a lot of friends and asserting regional autonomy; say the right to make war without Arcaean intervention on either side and a willingness to back that up.  There are a lot of ways to shake things up but valex the Uniter , valex the katamari of the fei has shown his IC intentions and ambitions and you should expect him to continue and maybe develop some of your own. If things don't go your way try something different, the worst the powerful can do is lose the status of their puppet states or their own stagnant position. If you aren't willing to lose shaking things up then you're just supporting the status quo and making sure to put your full power into keeping things stagnant.

But seriously much love to all the winners and losers and to the rest don't be scared to play.

Kainaq

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #71: January 14, 2015, 09:30:30 AM »
From a realistic stand point, this was the inevitable conclusion from the failed glacier experiment that tactically nuked Kindara.

De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #72: January 14, 2015, 10:44:43 AM »
So what you're both saying is that you wouldn't have made a peep if I did nothing at all, but because I'm trying to do something to help the Far East, but not sacrificing everything that has been built up over the last five-eight years to "maximise" everyone else's fun, you get to jump up and down and criticise?

I'll remind you that it's Arcaea that loses with what I've done. I've essentially tossed away two alliances and multiple IC friendships built up over years that would have allowed Arcaea to completely dominate the island with no chance whatsoever to fall out of power. Arcaea isn't the massive powerhouse it once was and the loss of those alliances leaves the realm more vulnerable that you obviously know. But if any effort I make isn't enough for you unless I deliberately tear down what took years to build, then you know what? Too. [email protected]#$ing. Bad.

What I am saying is that from my reading of Delvins original post, he took issue with what he viewed as a switch and bait. It seemed to him from various sources that you were wanting to put FEI above all other considerations, but then when push came to shove their were conditions. Thus the issue is not so much the course of action taken, but the disappointment that it was not the course of action that he felt was implied by earlier statements. Sort of similar to how most people feel after a political campaign when all those lofty promises are revised to real world implementation.
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Velax

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #73: January 14, 2015, 10:49:15 AM »
That would be understandable if I had ever said I intended to split Arcaea up. I have not. I have done everything I said I would do and more to try to liven things up.

De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #74: January 14, 2015, 10:57:13 AM »
That would be understandable if I had ever said I intended to split Arcaea up. I have not. I have done everything I said I would do and more to try to liven things up.

If someone had implied their top priority was to generate or aid fun in FEI, and a certain situation was the largest contributor by far to prevent such a goal, it does not take a explicit statement for someone to believe the course of action to rectify it is a reasonable expectation. Right now the general feeling on FEI is if ANYONE tries to do anything, Arcaea will stick their nose in. Doesn't matter if Arcaea promises not to destroy realms, the consensus is fast becoming that unless Arcaea endorses your course of action, it is doomed to failure. If that attitude really take root, then it will simply kill any incentive for the remainder of the island to bother setting up any situations at all.

Arcaea is in a tough position, if they attempt to create their own war, people will cry they are bullies. If they join other peoples wars as in this situation, people will cry they are enforcing their will upon the continent. If they do nothing then obviously there is less fun for Arcaea.  Welcome to being the Top Dog, it is never a very pleasant path.
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