Author Topic: Attack on Sasrhas!  (Read 61684 times)

Velax

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #75: January 14, 2015, 11:26:04 AM »
It is not a reasonable expectation if:

1. I didn't say, anywhere, that my top priority was to generate or aid fun in the Far East. It is something I am trying to do, but nowhere have I said I will pursue that goal to the detriment of everything else; and

2. If rectifying the situation apparently involves crippling my realm, tossing everything that was built up over years in the toilet and potentially making things less fun for the 30 nobles my character is directly responsible for.

Proportionally, Arcaea has lost as many nobles as any other current realm. In sheer numbers, we've lost a lot more. I won't intentionally cripple us further, and I doubt anyone else would do the same to their realm either.

De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #76: January 14, 2015, 11:36:57 AM »

Proportionally, Arcaea has lost as many nobles as any other current realm. In sheer numbers, we've lost a lot more. I won't intentionally cripple us further, and I doubt anyone else would do the same to their realm either.

Indeed Delvin already stated he would not personally do so to a realm he controlled, yet obviously he gained the impression from somewhere that you were going to prioritise the continuation of FEI above all other consideration.
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Anaris

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #77: January 14, 2015, 03:38:33 PM »
What really makes me disappointed in you, Velax, is that in all of this, you just keep on talking about what it will mean for what you've built, for Arcaea, if it splits up.

And let me be very clear: I am in no way suggesting that Velax de Vere should personally advocate an IC course of action that leads to Arcaea splitting up. Baranion's certainly not going to suggest that Arcaea splitting up is a good idea, either; after all, without Arcaea's friendship, Zonasa is still a pretty small, weak realm, likely to get jumped on by multiple other realms on the continent.

I am saying that Eoghan Barry, the player, should, at the very least, acknowledge that doing so would increase the overall fun of the Far East Island significantly. I am saying that, furthermore, you need to seriously consider just what it is that Arcaea plans to do right now, because like De-Legro said, pretty much any action Arcaea tries to take will result in either instant capitulation, or a faceroll. No one wants to fight the ten-ton gorilla. I am saying that you need to consider to what extent the best interests of the realm—as in, its power and survival—are actually congruent with the fun of its players.

If you can find a way to make the Far East Island dynamic and fun without breaking up Arcaea into multiple realms, I am all for that. I'd be happy to hear suggestions. (Hell, if you don't want to state anything publicly, I'd be happy to hear "I've got a plan, just give me a few days/weeks/months." After all, that's pretty much my response to Hyral here—and what I've said repeatedly when people ask me what I'm going to do about the future of the FEI.)

But just saying, on the one hand, "Hey guys, I'm trying to make the FEI more fun, so don't just stop fighting when I speak up," and on the other, "I'm not going to even consider doing anything that would reduce Arcaea's power, no matter what that means for the fun of the continent," sounds more than a tad hypocritical.
Timothy Collett

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vonGenf

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #78: January 14, 2015, 04:32:52 PM »
If you can find a way to make the Far East Island dynamic and fun without breaking up Arcaea into multiple realms, I am all for that. I'd be happy to hear suggestions.

Arcaea just declared war against its two closest allies. These are the realms that geographically encompasses Arcaea's core regions. They're two regions away from Arcaea's capital. They also have a combined military strength higher than Arcaea. There's real danger there.

Have you ever seen the Cagilan Empire declare war against Talerium and Tara?

It's been only three months since the last war ended. There seems to be good IC politics brewing with new grudges being established. New wars are being launched. Give it a chance.
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Anaris

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #79: January 14, 2015, 04:43:26 PM »
Arcaea just declared war against its two closest allies. These are the realms that geographically encompasses Arcaea's core regions. They're two regions away from Arcaea's capital. They also have a combined military strength higher than Arcaea. There's real danger there.

So it has. Sorry, I hadn't logged into the game yet today; my last information was that Velax had spoken against Coralynth and Sorraine, but there was still a danger of them backing down without anything more happening.

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It's been only three months since the last war ended. There seems to be good IC politics brewing with new grudges being established. New wars are being launched. Give it a chance.

I'm happy to. I'm just frustrated that Velax doesn't seem to think that it matters at all to the fun of the continent that Arcaea is so strong.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Antonine

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #80: January 14, 2015, 05:44:09 PM »
What Anaris says.

IC I absolutely don't expect Velax to break up Arcaea. But for RL years we've been hearing OOC that Arcaea conquering FEI won't be bad for the game because realms will be able to fight each other and it will be really fun for players.

The fact is that Arcaea's geography makes it unbeatable. It has the most cities, the most gold, the most nobles and even the food shortages which used to cripple it don't exist anymore. OOC that's a problem. So the player of Velax should be thinking about that and how to improve it.

And immediately intervening to stop realms from settling a long standing grudge they have isn't going to improve things. Yes it creates animosity against Arcaea but that's it. And even if Sorraine/Coralynth have more CS than Arcaea that won't last when Arcaea has more nobles and more resources to fall back on - and especially not when they're both also fighting Ohnar West while Cathay considers joining in against Sorraine too.

Besides which, Arcaea isn't fun. Sorry, but it's not. It's fun if you're one of the top people maybe but the average knight has limited chances of progression and there's very little to shake up the dynamics of the realm. The king is in power for life. The judge is in power for life. The banker is in power for life. The general is in power for life. The dukes are in power for life.

At least if Arcaea was split in two there'd be more opportunities for the average noble to advance. Plus the two halves would be likely to be involved in more wars (along with the rest of the continent) which is the best thing for increasing player numbers and retention.

Look at Ar Agyr on Beluaterra. Tiny realm with few nobles and absolutely silent while it was at peace. Once it was at war it doubled the number of its nobles, despite defections, simply because there were actually things happening.

So Barry, I can't criticise the character of Velax for doing what he's doing but as the single most powerful player on the continent I really don't think you're doing enough to let the continent become more fun.

Antonine

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #81: January 14, 2015, 05:53:21 PM »
To take a more geopolitical perspective, here's how I see things.

The FEI is currently the Holy Roman Empire. Lots of sovereign realms theoretically united by a single system.

Unfortunately, the version of the Holy Roman Empire we have is one where Arcaea is the Habsburgs at the height of their power. Yes, wars can happen within the empire but the fundamental dynamics of it are trapped in a particular pattern.

What we need is the medieval version of it where the emperorship changed hands regularly. I personally don't see how it would be any less fun for the players in Arcaea to be in a rump realm with the title of emperor, constantly having to watch out for rivals, than to be the almighty Habsburgs with no meaningful opposition.

Chenier

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #82: January 14, 2015, 06:35:33 PM »
Can you really be sure that Arcaea splitting up would make FEI more fun for most players?

Problem is often a lot of the choices that were done OOC with the hopes of making things more fun ended up not working out.
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Antonine

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #83: January 14, 2015, 06:49:06 PM »
Well in my experience the things that make things more fun are lots of challenging wars and lots of diplomatic upheaval. Personally I've always believed that the best way to do that is to have lots of small realms. So that's where my line of thinking is coming from.

Hyral

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #84: January 14, 2015, 09:08:06 PM »
Sure you can. We are all players of the game and ideally when the game has the player base problem it currently does you can expect long term high profile players to perhaps take a game wide view based on the current situation. We can not really afford for yet more continents to stagnate just because the dominate power is having fun, regardless of how the dominate power came to be. You can't FORCE them to, but you can certainly put across a point of view that prioritises this, especially when the player has expressed that such a thing is one of his goals.

No, what we don't need is for more people to think that they don't have to do anything for things to get done. Stagnation doesn't just happen. It's not a natural disaster that you can't see coming. There is no 'regardless of how' when it comes to crippled islands. The how is exactly the point. The how is what we do every time we make a decision for our characters. You can't skip over it. You reap what you sow. Don't need a stagnated continent? Don't do your damnedest to make it that way. The game won't function if we go on with the mindset that it's okay to avoid doing all the things that make the game dynamic because we're entitled to receive a dynamic game via altruistic mercy-magic after the fact. That is insane.

Anaris

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #85: January 14, 2015, 09:18:14 PM »
The game won't function if we go on with the mindset that it's okay to avoid doing all the things that make the game dynamic because we're entitled to receive a dynamic game via altruistic mercy-magic after the fact. That is insane.

You done with your strawman?

Because at no time did I say that I was going to sit back and let everyone else make life interesting.

I've got plans, I'm just not ready to share them with the world at large. Like I said, give me a few days/weeks/months/years.
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De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #86: January 14, 2015, 09:43:40 PM »
No, what we don't need is for more people to think that they don't have to do anything for things to get done. Stagnation doesn't just happen. It's not a natural disaster that you can't see coming. There is no 'regardless of how' when it comes to crippled islands. The how is exactly the point. The how is what we do every time we make a decision for our characters. You can't skip over it. You reap what you sow. Don't need a stagnated continent? Don't do your damnedest to make it that way. The game won't function if we go on with the mindset that it's okay to avoid doing all the things that make the game dynamic because we're entitled to receive a dynamic game via altruistic mercy-magic after the fact. That is insane.

Suggesting that one group takes some form of action in no way means that other groups aren't going to take action. Hell other groups DID take action and started a war, one that quickly cooled because Arcaea threw their weight into it. Would it have been nice if the attempts by others to prevent this had worked previously? Sure. Would we perhaps not have arrived here had other realms made different choices, possible I haven't been on FEI since long before the glacier, only recently returning so I'm not 100% across the alliances that resulted in the empire.

Regardless we are in a situation where the least populated continent aside from the colonies is generating an atmosphere were players in realms other then Arcaea are feeling they have no real reason to keep going. How we arrived there and how it could have been stopped are useful discussions, finding a way to fix it is a far more important one.
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Hyral

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #87: January 14, 2015, 09:46:08 PM »
You done with your strawman?

Because at no time did I say that I was going to sit back and let everyone else make life interesting.

I've got plans, I'm just not ready to share them with the world at large. Like I said, give me a few days/weeks/months/years.

Don't bother snarking me because you're feeling defensive. My clearly labeled and quoted  message was in response to De-Legro's assertion that, yes, you can expect big realms to downsize regardless of what you do or don't do, in the name of fun for everyone.

I'll give you however long you want? My only issue with you personally, if it can be so called, is that I have no idea where you can pull complaints about Arcaean dominance from given your actions until now.

De-Legro

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #88: January 14, 2015, 09:50:29 PM »
Don't bother snarking me because you're feeling defensive. My clearly labeled and quoted  message was in response to De-Legro's assertion that, yes, you can expect big realms to downsize regardless of what you do or don't do, in the name of fun for everyone.

I'll give you however long you want? My only issue with you personally, if it can be so called, is that I have no idea where you can pull complaints about Arcaean dominance from given your actions until now.

Yup, but as players we know those big monolithic realms are stagnating the game. We are losing players which basically means that unless something changes the game can not continue as it is. Glaciers were unpopular, the other alternative that was considered was simply closing islands which would hardly be more popular. Unless the mindset of the player base shifts to making the game fun for the majority of players, we will continue to see people leave when they feel they and their realms are irrelevant in the game world, and if that continues it will hardly matter if you are the largest kid on the block, cause very likely you will be the only kid on the block.

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Anaris

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Re: Attack on Sasrhas!
« Reply #89: January 14, 2015, 09:54:19 PM »
Don't bother snarking me because you're feeling defensive. My clearly labeled and quoted  message was in response to De-Legro's assertion that, yes, you can expect big realms to downsize regardless of what you do or don't do, in the name of fun for everyone.

I'm not feeling defensive; I was under the impression that your discussion with De-Legro was still in regards to my alleged hypocrisy. If I misunderstood the direction of your ire, I apologize.

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I'll give you however long you want? My only issue with you personally, if it can be so called, is that I have no idea where you can pull complaints about Arcaean dominance from given your actions until now.

So, what, you think that because I supported Arcaea when it happened to be wiping out your realm—which, by the way, I would like to remind you was hellbent on wiping out my realm at the time—I'm not allowed to criticise them later on? Because I was opposed to something you wanted in the past, I'm never allowed to voice any support for anything you want in the future?

The world's not that black and white, Hyral. Even the small slice of it that is the BattleMaster playerbase has plenty of room for shades of grey. Just because my character was your character's enemy in the past doesn't mean that I am your enemy.

Hell, I'm not even Velax's enemy. I'm not even mad at him. (Mildly irritated, I'll admit to ;) ) I just disagree with him on this one point.
Timothy Collett

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