Attack on Sasrhas!

[Bedwyr]

The way the Empire ended up getting implemented is indeed very different than the original vision Jenred (and indeed, Arcaea at large, as I will note for those unaware that embarking on the course of Empire was actually put to public debate, and Jenred stated at the time that in his not so humble assessment he thought the most likely outcome was the complete destruction of Arcaea) had.

The whole thing was actually the result of a thought experiment kicked around on IRC for a while as we discussed problems with Battlemaster (and indeed, specifically looked at the Holy Roman Empire).  I posited that what Battlemaster really needed was some sort of way to have realm duels.  After some discussion, it was decided that there was no mechanical way to enforce such a thing, so I tried to come up with a system (again, with a lot of help) that would result in a political situation where you could actually enforce limited wars.  The idea being that, say, Coralynth could Challenge Ohnar West to a war, and then Arcaea (and everyone else) would enforce strict neutrality on everyone else (which of course would lead to all kinds of conflict regarding indirect assistance and the like).

Plus, the original plan was to have Jenred's wife Edara secede from Arcaea, form a new realm with Talex/Topenah (and at various points, Colasan), and have Jenred join that realm...Making that new realm the Imperial realm (at least until someone else won a challenge against them) and weakening Arcaea significantly.

I know both IC and OOC that there are other plans Velax has cooking, and I'm very interested to see how they work out, but I would like to posit that something like this is a decent fallback plan (grins).

[Chenier]

Well in my experience the things that make things more fun are lots of challenging wars and lots of diplomatic upheaval. Personally I've always believed that the best way to do that is to have lots of small realms. So that's where my line of thinking is coming from.

That used to be how I thought, until small realms became the norm and small realms started getting really, really small. Then it got kind of lonely, with no one to talk to, and most elections resulting in zero competition.

Noble-wise, Arcaea isn't all that big for standards of just a couple of years back.

[De-Legro]

That used to be how I thought, until small realms became the norm and small realms started getting really, really small. Then it got kind of lonely, with no one to talk to, and most elections resulting in zero competition.

Noble-wise, Arcaea isn't all that big for standards of just a couple of years back.

Yes, any fewer then 20 characters makes for a quiet realm in general, though that can depend on who is behind the characters. Of course the  obvious alternative to splitting up Arcaea is to get more characters into the existing realms, or perhaps merge some of them.

[Hyral]

I'm not feeling defensive; I was under the impression that your discussion with De-Legro was still in regards to my alleged hypocrisy. If I misunderstood the direction of your ire, I apologize.

I mentioned upthread that I thought the issue being discussed with De-Legro was a problem seen not just on the FEI in general but throughout BM and that I was going to rage about it.

So, what, you think that because I supported Arcaea when it happened to be wiping out your realm—which, by the way, I would like to remind you was hellbent on wiping out my realm at the time—I'm not allowed to criticise them later on? Because I was opposed to something you wanted in the past, I'm never allowed to voice any support for anything you want in the future?

 The world's not that black and white, Hyral. Even the small slice of it that is the BattleMaster playerbase has plenty of room for shades of grey. Just because my character was your character's enemy in the past doesn't mean that I am your enemy.

No seriously, you are feeling defensive. I didn't say or even remotely suggest any of those things.

Arcaea is doing exactly what it said it would do. You knew what you were signing up for. So I don't understand how you can complain about it when they make good on their plans. That's it. None of that drama in quotes up there.

[De-Legro]

I mentioned upthread that I thought the issue being discussed with De-Legro was a problem seen not just on the FEI in general but throughout BM and that I was going to rage about it.

No seriously, you are feeling defensive. I didn't say or even remotely suggest any of those things.

Arcaea is doing exactly what it said it would do. You knew what you were signing up for. So I don't understand how you can complain about it when they make good on their plans. That's it. None of that drama in quotes up there.

How is involving themselves in the war have anything to do with the concept of limited wars that was the entire reason for formulating the concept of the Empire in the first place? I could understand them attempting to keep Coralynth out of the war, but to declare against Sorraine as well simply destroys the core concept that the empire will allow wars among member states and act to prevent escalation (and gang bangs)

[bofeng]

I would really support the idea of breaking up Arcaea. That's also something I suggested OOC privately to Velax, which he disagreed based on lack of nobles. But the truth is that nobles left because they feel irrelevant and boring.

Personally I won't mind breaking down Cathay if that can contribute more fun to the island. I was talking to the royal council OOC that maybe we should have just let Cathay die back in the last war if that means the players will stay in the island and fight in some other war. Cathay has lost some of our active players since the end of the war, which was a huge hit to us. If we had the former team, we would have jumped into the current one without a second thought.

Looking forward, I believe every realm needs to jump into a war right away for the sake of retaining good players. It turns out that wars, schemes, and rebellions, are the most fun part of the game. I believe empire building is fun too, but only to few people on top of the command chain.

The above is a bit off topic. The idea of burying OW now is just like continuing the thought process of the old cold war. It shows lack of creativity. But on the other side, the idea of Arcea preventing the destruction of OW is even worse… It’s like a declaration that no one should ever attempt anything. So it goes back to the old topic again that Arcaea must be broken down. In that case, everyone has an equal opportunity again.

[Indirik]

The problem with trying to save OW is that to many people have too many good reasons to wipe them out. Current reasons, based on recent actions, not just old and stale reasons.

[Chenier]

The problem with trying to save OW is that to many people have too many good reasons to wipe them out. Current reasons, based on recent actions, not just old and stale reasons.

Why save OW? Don't they have, like, 4 nobles or something?

[Indirik]

Close enough.

[Hyral]

Going to reply a bit to De-Legro's responses that have backed up...quote spam warning. I promise it's over.

Suggesting that one group takes some form of action in no way means that other groups aren't going to take action.

Except that your suggestion here is that Arcaea break up so everyone can go about their merry way without having to have done anything. So while it doesn't strictly prevent other groups from taking action on their own, it eliminates the need to via free-pass.

Regardless we are in a situation where the least populated continent aside from the colonies is generating an atmosphere were players in realms other then Arcaea are feeling they have no real reason to keep going. How we arrived there and how it could have been stopped are useful discussions, finding a way to fix it is a far more important one.

I don't disagree that the FEI needs a way out, but I vehemently disagree with the way you're suggesting.

Yup, but as players we know those big monolithic realms are stagnating the game.

So don't support them?

We are losing players which basically means that unless something changes the game can not continue as it is. Glaciers were unpopular, the other alternative that was considered was simply closing islands which would hardly be more popular. Unless the mindset of the player base shifts to making the game fun for the majority of players, we will continue to see people leave when they feel they and their realms are irrelevant in the game world, and if that continues it will hardly matter if you are the largest kid on the block, cause very likely you will be the only kid on the block.

We agree that the player mindset needs to be changed, and that it needs to focus on making the game more engaging, but we still diverge when it comes to implementation. It's too late to start thinking about what's fun for everyone once the island is in a swamp. Folks needed to be thinking about that before. Fun for everyone starts with what you yourself can do to make the game fun. Expecting someone else to preform some balance-fu after the fact if people aren't happy with where their decisions led them is just...wrong.

How is involving themselves in the war have anything to do with the concept of limited wars that was the entire reason for formulating the concept of the Empire in the first place? I could understand them attempting to keep Coralynth out of the war, but to declare against Sorraine as well simply destroys the core concept that the empire will allow wars among member states and act to prevent escalation (and gang bangs)

I'm guessing we have different interpretations of allow. As to preventing escalation and gang bangs, it kind of sounds like they intended to do that too.

[De-Legro]

Going to reply a bit to De-Legro's responses that have backed up...quote spam warning. I promise it's over.

Except that your suggestion here is that Arcaea break up so everyone can go about their merry way without having to have done anything. So while it doesn't strictly prevent other groups from taking action on their own, it eliminates the need to via free-pass.

I don't disagree that the FEI needs a way out, but I vehemently disagree with the way you're suggesting.

So don't support them?

We agree that the player mindset needs to be changed, and that it needs to focus on making the game more engaging, but we still diverge when it comes to implementation. It's too late to start thinking about what's fun for everyone once the island is in a swamp. Folks needed to be thinking about that before. Fun for everyone starts with what you yourself can do to make the game fun. Expecting someone else to preform some balance-fu after the fact if people aren't happy with where their decisions led them is just...wrong.

I'm guessing we have different interpretations of allow. As to preventing escalation and gang bangs, it kind of sounds like they intended to do that too.

Except now the war is shaping up to be everyone vs the two originating realms, yeah sure no gang bang there at all, for the first war since the empire was formed.

We agree that the player mindset needs to be changed, and that it needs to focus on making the game more engaging, but we still diverge when it comes to implementation. It's too late to start thinking about what's fun for everyone once the island is in a swamp. Folks needed to be thinking about that before. Fun for everyone starts with what you yourself can do to make the game fun. Expecting someone else to preform some balance-fu after the fact if people aren't happy with where their decisions led them is just...wrong.

Those with the greatest power have the greatest responsibility in regards to fun and balance. That has always been the case, and is one of the key responsibilities to those whom hold council positions. Realms that have greater power on an island, no matter how they came by it by extension end up with even greater responsibility then the same positions in other realms, simply because in general they have more opportunity to do so.

If the empire model looked like working, then Arcaea being the biggest fish in a small pond would be less of an issue. The fact that the first war since the founding of the empire is already degenerating into another continent wide war shows that what people thought they were buying into is not working out in reality, thus something needs to be done to redress that before the damage to motivation really gets under way.

[Indirik]

...thus something needs to be done to redress that before the damage to motivation really gets under way.

Too late.

[Anaris]

The problem with trying to save OW is that to many people have too many good reasons to wipe them out. Current reasons, based on recent actions, not just old and stale reasons.

Zonasa's not joining the war to save OW. They're joining the war to prevent Sartanism from taking over the world and to protest Coralynth's truly appalling behaviour.

[dustole]

My duchy was given permission to split off but with only 6 nobles in the Duchy I'm not sure how viable I f a realm we would be.

[altamira]

That's about as many as coralynth or ow and I'm sure they have a lot more regions to manage. Do it!! You'll probably attract more nobles. And definately ssmake some more fun.