What Lies West

[Eldargard]

Apology accepted and let me reciprocate. I shouldn't have gone so passive aggressive at your post.
If you are sincerely curious why PvE is enticing for certain players I will try to break it down. Don't get me wrong, PvP wars are super exciting. But it is just one facet of game. Take a look at Atamara - it's been a dead place for half a year (much longer for some realms). Dwilight moves in the same direction currently, Luria inevitably becoming a stabilizing superpower. Maybe it's not and I'm wrong, but adding more options, more stuff to do for realms is always a good thing and I can see no drawbacks.
Let's say Luria and the League strike a truce. What do we all do next? Sit on our hands. PvE is an option a realm can choose. See?

Makes sense. I also see no harm in having PvE as an option and i value the NPC monsters and undead when growing a new character and often wish they would spawn more often (especially when I find myself in a peaceful realm). The only possible downside I could imagine is that if people are so focused on PvE and expanding to new lands, what motivation do they have to stir things up with the other players?

[Eldargard]

Perhaps some kind of algorithm that bases spawn rates on player density and spawn locations on existing rouge lands? The idea being that having player count drop would automatically cause an increase in spawning and the tendency to spawn near rouge regions might result in contiguous chunks being taken by the rouges. As player count decreases, rouge presence increases and more lands occupied by rouges (centered around the first region to fall to rouges). As players come back the spawn rates drop allowing players to reclaim some of that land.

Then again... probably not.

[Chenier]

Makes sense. I also see no harm in having PvE as an option and i value the NPC monsters and undead when growing a new character and often wish they would spawn more often (especially when I find myself in a peaceful realm). The only possible downside I could imagine is that if people are so focused on PvE and expanding to new lands, what motivation do they have to stir things up with the other players?

That wasn't a complaint when hordes were strong. For a long time, there were huge hordes between all of the realms, and few could interact with each other. When they were close enough, they'd usually fight to the death to compete for colonization rights. Nobody complained "we don't have enough PvP!".

PvE had always been a huge deal for BT and Dwi. Don't like PvE? Stay on FEI, EI, AT, SI, or colonies. Even BT is pretty much only PvP now.

On the other hand, human wars on Dwi have always generated a ton of complaints. Dwi's geography sucks for PvP. When it wasn't the North's inability to act in the South, it was the word's inability to act against Luria, or really just about anything else. Few PvP conflicts on Dwilight resulted in fun for all participants.

What BM needs is for PvE to return to the continent it was famous for. Dwilight needs new monster spawn mechanics that will allow for PvE in a significant manner. Dump monster spawn points in Chrysantalys, Via, Ruins of Walfurgisnacht, and Balance's Retreat. Turn down all other rogue spawning to normal levels. Make these regions spawn rogues once per week, every week, but in massive numbers. Make rogues travel every single turn. And thus let Dwi realms return to what they were happy doing for most of Dwi's history. Fight monsters and each other over colonization rights.

Boost gold value of the west and add new mechanics to repopulate regions, though.

[GundamMerc]

What is lacking is an equilibrium. We went from having too many monsters to colonize even small parts of the west (heck, of any part of Dwilight at all), to having too few monsters to prevent us from colonizing it all.

Though I'd point out that when we colonized it all, we had a lot more nobles. Even if we turned back rogue levels considerably down, there's no way Dwi realms could push too far out with current noble levels. The low density would kill any attempts to expand past a few core regions.

However, having those low monster spawns allowed us to have realms like Barca, Asylon, Terran, Kabrinskia, Niselur, etc. that were highly active and fun to be in. If someone has the historical record of the Dwilight map for the last 2-3 years, I can bet you that the map of the west was far more volatile than that in the east. It constantly was in flux, with first one realm then another gaining the upper hand. Barca was just the latest of those realms.

[Indirik]

Perhaps some kind of algorithm that bases spawn rates on player density and spawn locations on existing rouge lands? The idea being that having player count drop would automatically cause an increase in spawning and the tendency to spawn near rouge regions might result in contiguous chunks being taken by the rouges. As player count decreases, rouge presence increases and more lands occupied by rouges (centered around the first region to fall to rouges). As players come back the spawn rates drop allowing players to reclaim some of that land.

IIRC the monster code already kinda-sorta does this. Rogue lands generate more rogue groups than player-controlled lands.

Not only that, but monster rates are also influenced by adventurers. Lands patrolled and hunted by adventurers will generate fewer monster/undead groups. Rogue lands will tend to be less-hunted, due to lack of bounties, and advies tending to get caught more often in them. That's another reason rogue lands will generate more rogue groups.

There are probably various ways that spawning and rogue group behavior could be tailored to provide a different experience for Dwilight than for other islands. I know that Anaris and I had talked a while back about a simple four or five step monster logic routine that would allow monsters to react to the situation around them, rather than just make dumb/random moves.

Anyway, any changes like that are a big decision that can't be made lightly.

[Constantine]

The only possible downside I could imagine is that if people are so focused on PvE and expanding to new lands, what motivation do they have to stir things up with the other players?

Again, having a character on Atamara I do not see any merit in this argument.

[BarticaBoat]

Old Dwilight was not impossible to colonize. Everguard did it. We took ~15 of us, left Morek, and started way off in the wilderness of Valkyrja. Did really well to be honest. Only reason we fell was a particularly harsh winter and monster hordes ravaging us, leaving us too weak to resist an Astrumese invasion... not to mention our poor diplomacy, but no one would have been able to save us even if we had allies.

IIRC, not long after Everguard was destroyed the monster spawn rates were dialed down because they were apparently too difficult. Psh.

I think boosting gold values in the west could be a good incentive, but I do not believe there are too many monsters. Fighting a battle where victory is uncertain is far more exciting than slow prolonged slogs.

[OFaolain]

However, having those low monster spawns allowed us to have realms like Barca, Asylon, Terran, Kabrinskia, Niselur, etc. that were highly active and fun to be in. If someone has the historical record of the Dwilight map for the last 2-3 years, I can bet you that the map of the west was far more volatile than that in the east. It constantly was in flux, with first one realm then another gaining the upper hand. Barca was just the latest of those realms.

Actually, in the east there were Raivan Empire, Libero Empire, Summerdale, Morek, Xinhai, Averoth and Thulsoma all in the northeast (from Valkyrja down to Donghaiwei). There were 3 or 4 different Lurian realms after Pian en Luries fractured, that was cool. There was also Corsanctum (which I miss ) and its short-lived colony Aurora; there was also Aquilegia over in Flowrestown. In the west was Astrum, Niselur (fell to rebellion & monsters, got re-founded, I stopped playing, rebellion happened which lead to the Niselur you remember), Caerwyn (backstabbed Astrum, got wiped out) and Asylon (colony of Caerwyn). And that's just the northern half of the west; I never played in the south with Terran, Barca, Madina, etc. Probably a plus because I never really had to deal with the daemons, either.

So actually, before the spawns got lowered the game was still extremely vibrant in both the east and the west; low monster spawns didn't have anything to do with it. And like Constantine said, based on experience playing in high-spawn rate Dwilight and normal-spawn rate Atamara, I feel like Dwilight had more action against monsters and otherwise.

And everything BarticaBoat just said, except Everguard predates me. Niselur only fell the first time because of bad banking, and a rebellion. Were they really dialed down after Everguard? Because if so, they got dialed down *again* some time after the first Niselur.

[De-Legro]

Old Dwilight was not impossible to colonize. Everguard did it. We took ~15 of us, left Morek, and started way off in the wilderness of Valkyrja. Did really well to be honest. Only reason we fell was a particularly harsh winter and monster hordes ravaging us, leaving us too weak to resist an Astrumese invasion... not to mention our poor diplomacy, but no one would have been able to save us even if we had allies.

IIRC, not long after Everguard was destroyed the monster spawn rates were dialed down because they were apparently too difficult. Psh.

I think boosting gold values in the west could be a good incentive, but I do not believe there are too many monsters. Fighting a battle where victory is uncertain is far more exciting than slow prolonged slogs.

That would be the point. Old Dwilight was difficult, and mistakes often resulted in harsh consequences. It was in my opinion fun, and lead to constant colony attempts, many ill fated from the start. Those that planned well and executed the plan were rewarded with a success and then the constant fight to hold the borders.

The system in place now is NOT the old spawn system. It is a system that was designed to force well established realms out of the west.

[GundamMerc]

Actually, in the east there were Raivan Empire, Libero Empire, Summerdale, Morek, Xinhai, Averoth and Thulsoma all in the northeast (from Valkyrja down to Donghaiwei). There were 3 or 4 different Lurian realms after Pian en Luries fractured, that was cool. There was also Corsanctum (which I miss ) and its short-lived colony Aurora; there was also Aquilegia over in Flowrestown. In the west was Astrum, Niselur (fell to rebellion & monsters, got re-unded, I stopped playing, rebellion happened which lead to the Niselur you remember), Caerwyn (backstabbed Astrum, got wiped out) and Asylon (colony of Caerwyn). And that's just the northern half of the west; I never played in the south with Terran, Barca, Madina, etc. Probably a plus because I never really had to deal with the daemons, either.

So actually, before the spawns got lowered the game was still extremely vibrant in both the east and the west; low monster spawns didn't have anything to do with it. And like Constantine said, based on experience playing in high-spawn rate Dwilight and normal-spawn rate Atamara, I feel like Dwilight had more action against monsters and otherwise.

And everything BarticaBoat just said, except Everguard predates me. Niselur only fell the first time because of bad banking, and a rebellion. Were they really dialed down after Everguard? Because if so, they got dialed down *again* some time after the first Niselur.

You're acting like I wasn't around for all of those. I was. I was a part of Xinhai when they were fighting whatever incarnation of the Flowrestown realm was around at the time, then they got declared on by Libero Empire and Raivan Empire. I marched all the way back to Xinhai from down south in time to confront the Libero army, then we proceded to roflstomp the Raivan Empire after the Libero Empire pulled out of the war. I actually made Marshal at one point, and trained under the Ordermarshal of the time, the well respected Bustoarsenzio Peristaltico. I even wrote a strategy for troops usage for the Dwilight University. My character, Gustav, was part of the crusade against the Saxons in the north, and joined Allison to form Kabrinskia in the Crusade against Caerwyn.
 
If you aren't aware, this is the same person who played Gustav Kuriga and was Gustav Kuriga in the forums.

[Shizzle]

The only place were PvE is still viable is in the western section of Dwilight, bringing us back to the initial topic. So when do we set sail?

[Fleugs]

The only place were PvE is still viable is in the western section of Dwilight, bringing us back to the initial topic. So when do we set sail?

When this war is over? Assuming, from what I believe I read, Luria's addition to these efforts in the West are required. If D'Hara and Fissoa can do it on their own, I guess nothing should stop them if this is what they really want.

Besides, considering this entire thing, if the goal is to colonize parts of the West (if that is even possible), would that not make this current war kind of moot?

[OFaolain]

If you aren't aware, this is the same person who played Gustav Kuriga and was Gustav Kuriga in the forums.

Ah! No wonder I didn't recognize you. I assumed you had joined the game more recently since I didn't recognize the user name.

[Chenier]

High risk, high reward, that's as it should be.

Those who want it safe from the hordes and focus on internal politics can play in Luria. Those who want PvE constant battles could join those who focus West.

[DeVerci]

Just tone down the monsters in the West, jack up the monster spawn in the East and have everyone make a mad dash back West to try and create new colonies.