Author Topic: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?  (Read 26751 times)

Chenier

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #15: June 08, 2011, 05:34:57 AM »
...i didn't see many people advocating food trade or taxing cities heavier XD

i think the issue in riombara is 2 folds.

more nobles in cities combined than rural/town. tax/food benefits cities, so all the more reason not to vote for changes that'll hit the cities.

no one tries to starve cities either though they can't really, as there's no 1 duke to rally around to secede for example.. it's unlikely to change

Geography plays a huge role. Riombara isn't close to any food buyers, so lords don't have anything else to do with their food either. A completely different example would be the lords of western Dwilight: if their own dukes won't pay them for their food, then they know (or should know) that D'Hara *will*, and at a considerable price. D'Hara is therefore making a pressure on all western food markets, driving food prices up regardless of where it is sent. I can't say to what extent this is actually going on right now, though, but I suspect it will only increase. After all, D'Hara mostly deals with regions directly, and not realms, as rurals often feel a lack of love from higher up.

In D'Hara, rurals and townslands are also paid the maximum allowed amount for their food. While this does indeed redistribute food to where the majority of nobles now currently resides, the main objective was to incite profit-seeking lords to maximize their food outputs for their own sakes, therefore helping the cities out.

For this, though, D'Hara is unique, and I'm becoming more and more interested by how food is actively transforming the realm and activities around it.
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De-Legro

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #16: June 08, 2011, 05:58:04 AM »
Geography plays a huge role. Riombara isn't close to any food buyers, so lords don't have anything else to do with their food either. A completely different example would be the lords of western Dwilight: if their own dukes won't pay them for their food, then they know (or should know) that D'Hara *will*, and at a considerable price. D'Hara is therefore making a pressure on all western food markets, driving food prices up regardless of where it is sent. I can't say to what extent this is actually going on right now, though, but I suspect it will only increase. After all, D'Hara mostly deals with regions directly, and not realms, as rurals often feel a lack of love from higher up.

In D'Hara, rurals and townslands are also paid the maximum allowed amount for their food. While this does indeed redistribute food to where the majority of nobles now currently resides, the main objective was to incite profit-seeking lords to maximize their food outputs for their own sakes, therefore helping the cities out.

For this, though, D'Hara is unique, and I'm becoming more and more interested by how food is actively transforming the realm and activities around it.

Unique in what way? I've played in several realms were region lords could expect payment for their food within the realm, or sell it outside the realm at a profit.
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Chenier

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #17: June 08, 2011, 06:24:21 AM »
Unique in what way? I've played in several realms were region lords could expect payment for their food within the realm, or sell it outside the realm at a profit.

That the food supply is probably capped at like 10%, that so many big cities are bundled together without any major food producers. In most places, food supply is close to 100% (when discarding tiny realms that have extreme ratios), meaning a relatively small demand for food and keeping food prices down. In Dwilight, D'Hara has a demand that is unequaled anywhere else in the game, making a considerable pressure on food stocks and driving prices up.

I even predict it to eventually become problematic that the food prices are capped. Our suppliers are asking, on average, increasing prices. If we can't set a buy price higher than their sell price, then our traders can't make a profit. If they can't make a profit, then why would they bother? The 50 gold per unit limit is going to seriously hurt, if it remains too long.
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De-Legro

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #18: June 08, 2011, 06:49:35 AM »
That the food supply is probably capped at like 10%, that so many big cities are bundled together without any major food producers. In most places, food supply is close to 100% (when discarding tiny realms that have extreme ratios), meaning a relatively small demand for food and keeping food prices down. In Dwilight, D'Hara has a demand that is unequaled anywhere else in the game, making a considerable pressure on food stocks and driving prices up.

I even predict it to eventually become problematic that the food prices are capped. Our suppliers are asking, on average, increasing prices. If we can't set a buy price higher than their sell price, then our traders can't make a profit. If they can't make a profit, then why would they bother? The 50 gold per unit limit is going to seriously hurt, if it remains too long.

How many other buyers do they have though? The real issue in things like this is which party will break down first, the buyers that need that food, or the suppliers that want the gold. Of course you could go with a plan C and annex the damn food suppliers, but of course that is not always possible.

Far as I can tell, FEI has several realms that operate with food deficits or run so close to the supply that any bad weather results in starvation. Probably not on the level of D'Hara but I know Arcaea has been trying to buy food from pretty much any realm they can.
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Chenier

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #19: June 08, 2011, 07:00:52 AM »
How many other buyers do they have though? The real issue in things like this is which party will break down first, the buyers that need that food, or the suppliers that want the gold. Of course you could go with a plan C and annex the damn food suppliers, but of course that is not always possible.

Far as I can tell, FEI has several realms that operate with food deficits or run so close to the supply that any bad weather results in starvation. Probably not on the level of D'Hara but I know Arcaea has been trying to buy food from pretty much any realm they can.

An exceptionally good harvest in those realms means a minor surplus, though, while in D'Hara is still means major deficits. That's the difference.

And considering that D'Hara's current policy is *buy everything*, it sure is a seller's market, though mind you it's my job to control this situation. Hence why D'Hara stepped in the south's war, after all, to protect the eventual exporter that Aurvandil will become and prevent Madina from increasing it's own internal demand for food by the annexation of Candiels. I wouldn't bother mediating the conflict if it wasn't for that, as the claims both realms brought forth before our involvement didn't move me much (didn't read the ones since yet).
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Peri

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #20: June 08, 2011, 12:28:24 PM »
Geography plays a huge role. Riombara isn't close to any food buyers, so lords don't have anything else to do with their food either. A completely different example would be the lords of western Dwilight: if their own dukes won't pay them for their food, then they know (or should know) that D'Hara *will*, and at a considerable price. D'Hara is therefore making a pressure on all western food markets, driving food prices up regardless of where it is sent. I can't say to what extent this is actually going on right now, though, but I suspect it will only increase. After all, D'Hara mostly deals with regions directly, and not realms, as rurals often feel a lack of love from higher up.

In D'Hara, rurals and townslands are also paid the maximum allowed amount for their food. While this does indeed redistribute food to where the majority of nobles now currently resides, the main objective was to incite profit-seeking lords to maximize their food outputs for their own sakes, therefore helping the cities out.

For this, though, D'Hara is unique, and I'm becoming more and more interested by how food is actively transforming the realm and activities around it.

Reading your numerous forum posts about D'Hara and its amazing trade I always wondered how much are you really able to gather. Almost every realm on dwilight struggles for food: very few have surplus and since food it's an insanely powerful strategic asset, food market is strictly controlled in several of those realms. I would bet that all lords or traders caught selling food where they are not supposed to get a free ticket for a ban almost in every realm of dwilight. Certainly you can have a few traders on your paybook that run around and steal food or perhaps some lord that sells to you without being noticed, but these would make such tiny quantities as to be completely irrelevant on the large scale. Also, not so many lords are playing the selfish greedy guy, I guess there are quite a few that would gladly sell food cheaply to their own duke without thinking twice.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2011, 12:43:48 PM by Peri »

Chenier

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #21: June 08, 2011, 12:46:35 PM »
Reading your numerous forum posts about D'Hara and its amazing trade I always wondered how much are you really able to gather. Almost every realm on dwilight struggles for food: very few have surplus and since food it's an insanely powerful strategic asset, food market is strictly controlled in several of those realms. I would bet that all lords or traders caught selling food where they are not supposed to is a free ticket for a ban almost in every realm of dwilight. Certainly you can have a few traders on your paybook that run around and steal food or perhaps some lord that sells to you without being noticed, but these would make such tiny quantities as to be completely irrelevant on the large scale. Also, not so many lords are playing the selfish greedy guy, I guess there are quite a few that would gladly sell food cheaply to their own duke without thinking twice.

Food transactions are invisible. Some places have no-trade policies on realm level, while we are finding very interesting deals there at region levels. We don't advertize this to their council, so it passes unnoticed to everyone but the lord.

Paisly is importing more food than it consumes currently, but it did have its stores depleted not that far back. Port Nebel is frequently depleting its warehouses, but it seeks out markets less and it seems the eastern markets to which it has access to are rather closed. Port Raviel isn't faring as good as Paisly, but it's getting there as they are multiplying imports as well. I, for one, always have like 10 active caravan missions. Port Raviel is starting to do the same. Our traders stop by every now and then with very large sums of food they purchased from lands our automatic caravans can't reach.

I don't think many realms would react as strongly as you describe to lords exporting their food, even if there is shortage within. It's hard to justify a communistic approach to food on the SMA island, and after all all realms welcome the additional gold the trade brings, even if it means their surpluses are significantly smaller.

We aren't using the black market as far as I know. Dwilight is big, there are still enough open markets to not have to rely on the black market.
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Peri

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #22: June 08, 2011, 12:53:03 PM »
Food transactions are invisible. Some places have no-trade policies on realm level, while we are finding very interesting deals there at region levels. We don't advertize this to their council, so it passes unnoticed to everyone but the lord.

Paisly is importing more food than it consumes currently, but it did have its stores depleted not that far back. Port Nebel is frequently depleting its warehouses, but it seeks out markets less and it seems the eastern markets to which it has access to are rather closed. Port Raviel isn't faring as good as Paisly, but it's getting there as they are multiplying imports as well. I, for one, always have like 10 active caravan missions. Port Raviel is starting to do the same. Our traders stop by every now and then with very large sums of food they purchased from lands our automatic caravans can't reach.

I don't think many realms would react as strongly as you describe to lords exporting their food, even if there is shortage within. It's hard to justify a communistic approach to food on the SMA island, and after all all realms welcome the additional gold the trade brings, even if it means their surpluses are significantly smaller.

We aren't using the black market as far as I know. Dwilight is big, there are still enough open markets to not have to rely on the black market.

I see. But food transactions are not invisible: bankers are informed when someone buys or sell food, dukes and rulers get food movement report and with a bit of math they can easily find out if a couple hundred bushels vanished. Clearly that holds only if they have some realm wide food policy and if they care. I suspected more realms had but it appears is not so.

As for the communistic approach, it's not about SMA or not, it's just about being reasonable. If Lords starve their own cities, this easily means they will sooner or later have no one defending it from monsters, as certainly one rural can't field by itself much of an army even with good trade deals. Plus usually judges are more tied with dukes than not, so it's really not hard to put lords in line if one wants to. For sure there are enough holes in the net for people to smuggle as much as they want, but I am surprised to discover it's not the exception.

Chenier

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #23: June 08, 2011, 01:01:40 PM »
I see. But food transactions are not invisible: bankers are informed when someone buys or sell food, dukes and rulers get food movement report and with a bit of math they can easily find out if a couple hundred bushels vanished. Clearly that holds only if they have some realm wide food policy and if they care. I suspected more realms had but it appears is not so.

As for the communistic approach, it's not about SMA or not, it's just about being reasonable. If Lords starve their own cities, this easily means they will sooner or later have no one defending it from monsters, as certainly one rural can't field by itself much of an army even with good trade deals. Plus usually judges are more tied with dukes than not, so it's really not hard to put lords in line if one wants to. For sure there are enough holes in the net for people to smuggle as much as they want, but I am surprised to discover it's not the exception.

Bankers only get note of huge transactions, if even that I believe. I don't quite recall, I haven't been a banker in a while. I could ask my banker to clear this up for me.

The communistic approach is not reasonable, that's the whole point. Cities produce a ton of gold, and rurals very little. If their cities are unwilling to share their wealth a bit, then why should the rurals? None of my transactions are in tiny realms with food problems, there is always the gold there for it. And even when the realm is more conservative, it doesn't mean that their cities are starving either. It just means they want to be prudent at their rurals' expense.

Many rural lords would be willing to make a bit less gold by selling internally, I believe, so it's just for the local duke to offer a reasonable deal (and not necessarily as high as ours) and they will deal with them.

Finding food leaks is also not very easy.
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De-Legro

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #24: June 08, 2011, 01:26:27 PM »
Bankers only get note of huge transactions, if even that I believe. I don't quite recall, I haven't been a banker in a while. I could ask my banker to clear this up for me.

The communistic approach is not reasonable, that's the whole point. Cities produce a ton of gold, and rurals very little. If their cities are unwilling to share their wealth a bit, then why should the rurals? None of my transactions are in tiny realms with food problems, there is always the gold there for it. And even when the realm is more conservative, it doesn't mean that their cities are starving either. It just means they want to be prudent at their rurals' expense.

Many rural lords would be willing to make a bit less gold by selling internally, I believe, so it's just for the local duke to offer a reasonable deal (and not necessarily as high as ours) and they will deal with them.

Finding food leaks is also not very easy.

A transaction of about 200 counts as huge. What I can't remember is if you see these all all for automatic trade offers and the auto caravans.

Also its not exactly a communistic approach. Food from a rural area to the city can be viewed as part of the tithe owing the Duke as part of the oath. It could be argued that an instance on payment for food is capitalistic, neither statement is completely correct.
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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #25: June 08, 2011, 01:36:20 PM »
If I remember correctly, bankers get informed of large trader-initiated transactions within their own realm.  Thus, if a trader goes and buys 1000 bushels in Shoka or someplace, Terran's banker will hear about it...but won't know where that food gets sold.  When the 1000 food gets sold in Paisly, D'Hara's banker will hear about it, but I doubt he'll be inclined to tell Terran's...

Also, I think that the 50 gold/100 bushel limit is a thing of the past.  Not 100% sure, though; you might try it out.
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Peri

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #26: June 08, 2011, 02:11:55 PM »
Actually now that automatic transfers are handled by caravans, even less people will be informed of food moment, given that rulers and dukes would receive reports only when ox carts are used.

Tim is this intended or just a consequence of the new code? While I think less informations could make food game more interesting, the banker would lose even more of his current little power without seeing food movements.

De-Legro

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #27: June 08, 2011, 02:49:24 PM »
Actually now that automatic transfers are handled by caravans, even less people will be informed of food moment, given that rulers and dukes would receive reports only when ox carts are used.

Tim is this intended or just a consequence of the new code? While I think less informations could make food game more interesting, the banker would lose even more of his current little power without seeing food movements.

I've always though the bankers should receive notice of all large caravan purchases, even if a trader is not involved.
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Peri

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #28: June 08, 2011, 03:44:30 PM »
I've always though the bankers should receive notice of all large caravan purchases, even if a trader is not involved.

Yes but anyway consider this situation: harvest day, at sunrise regions gather food, threshold for automatic transfer is surpassed, all regions send caravans that are invisible on the way, the banker has absolutely no clue, if not going and checking how much each regions harvested, of how much food is around. He has no clue either whether the food is going here or there, in the realm or out the realm, and he would be informed only as caravans sell food to the cities, that is likely to happen in waves according to the distance.

So rather than being clearly informed on the food status of his realm he has to half guess half calculate what's the situation, asking lords where did they send the caravans and believing them on the word (since he can't check). In short: a nightmare for planning.

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Re: Sharing lords gold, whats up with that?
« Reply #29: June 08, 2011, 04:06:36 PM »
As D'Hara's trader, I'll let you know that I don't buy food on the black market. Ever. It doesn't make sense from a business perspective to alienate a potential seller. I used to sell it on the black market, in Paisly, because the offer was higher than the official one, but I got burned once or twice, so I'll stick to official channels from now on.

I try to speak with bankers and dukes first. I would much rather buy 1000 bushels from a single source, rather than scour half the continent for food. If my usual contact goes dark (*cough Duke Rai cough*) then I will travel throughout Fissoa looking for food. But I prefer to deal with a single official source.