Hero and Cavalier Class

[Zakilevo]

I think there should be something done about those two military focused sub classes. I believe De-Legro did some brainstorming few months back but it stopped.

So here is what I think should be done.

At the moment heroes can do few things which cavaliers cannot. - these are things I know.

1) Pick up volunteers - unreliable
2) Tell stories - unreliable
3) Can loot
4) Can escape from prison
5) Recruitment limit increase (minor)

Here are some disadvantages

1) Can't command sentries or police
2) Can be killed
3) No civil work

Cavalier advantages

1) Faster honor gain. You gain at least 1 unless you fight peasants.
2) Can perform civil work and police work
3) Can command a lot more men than hero (major)

Cavalier disadvantage

1) Can't loot
2) Lose honor when you leave the class (minor)

[Zakilevo]

First let's go over what heroes can do.

1) Pick up Volunteers

It is nice you can do this to go beyond your unit limit. But this is completely based on your luck.

First you have to get the option appeared on your screen to even be able to use this. Second you have to get lucky to find few men. If you are unlucky, you may not get any man at all.

I think either this option needs to become more reliable thing where you can access it all the time but maybe with some restrictions or stupid just be stripped.

2) Tell stories

Same goes for this. Maybe this can be changed so you can only tell stories as long as you have recently been in a battle to actually tell a story about.

3)  Can loot

Same as any other class except priest and cavalier so nothing special here.

I will continue after a game or two of dota brb!

[Indirik]

I believe that heroes get a recruitment bonus, but not as big as cavaliers. Heroes also get an opportunity to escape from prison.


Cavaliers lose honor when leaving the subclass.

[Indirik]

I am pretty sure Cavaliers can do police work, but not civil work.

[Zakilevo]

I am pretty sure Cavaliers can do police work, but not civil work.

Yeah they can. Because Cavalier doesn't have any restriction for choosing a unit role. They have access to all 5.

[Zakilevo]

x) Pick up volunteers - unreliable
x) Tell stories - unreliable
3) Can loot

Well this is allowed on pretty much all classes that can lead a unit except cavalier. It isn't that big of a deal since you can only loot so often. Also, there are many people who do not even choose a sub-class who can loot. This isn't a big advantage over cavalier.

4) Can escape from prison

This is nice since you get the option all the time.

5) Recruitment limit increase (minor)

This is the part I do not understand. Why, heroes who risk their lives being in the front line can't recruit as many men as cavaliers? Maybe heroes being able to recruit more than cavaliers would have made more sense with cavaliers only being able to match heroes in cavalry and SF while sharing the same infantry and archer limit as a normal warrior.

[Zakilevo]

1) Can't command sentries or police

This further weakens Hero as a class compare to cavalier. Sentires is a power unit setting which can turn the tide of battles for defenders. This happened so many times on SI alone. Combined with being unable to recruit more men than cavaliers + earning less honor, hero really isn't that good compare to cavalier.

2) Can be killed

I doubt this will be as good once the dev team adds that 'mortality button' feature since that will allow people to die from anything. Only being able to die on the field might not as appealing to some. Also, it is rather bloody hard to die.

3) No civil work

Not that important since this usually causes a drop in morale. Also, there are bureaucrats for this.

[Zakilevo]

Cavalier advantages

1) Faster honor gain. You gain at least 1 unless you fight peasants.

Combined with the cavalier class's huge bonus to unit size, this increases the gap between heroes and cavalier. Of course at some point it doesn't really matter for infantry and archer but for cavalry and SF, you will find a big difference. With everyone having so much gold, it is rather easy to get more cavalry and SF. Usually in big battles, you want cavalry and SF to dish out more damage and if you have more cavaliers, you can do just that.

2) Can perform civil work and police work

Not bad. This offsets being unable to loot in my opinion. Not everyone has to loot. Usually you have enough people for this anyway.

3) Can command a lot more men than hero (major)

Mentioned in the hero section counter part.

Cavalier disadvantage

1) Can't loot

As mentioned above, not that big of a deal.

2) Lose honor when you leave the class (minor)

This is negligible.

[Shizzle]

Maybe Heroes could semi-randomly show up in battle reports with their actions? Doesn't really need any mechanics behind it, just provide a small chance for any hero in the battle to be mentioned by name for personal actions, rather than just his unit. You could boost the chance slightly for sieges or something.

This doesn't require more mechanics but would add some flavor. Just seeing the name of your hero character mentioned at the moment of an important breach/charge/defense (and knowing the realms involved see it too) could be enough look at how Sandalak has been compiling reports on which unit has inflicted wounds on/captured/killed enemies, people like the spotlight.

[Vita`]

Heroes
a5) Recruitment limit increase (minor)
d1) Can't command sentries or police
d2) Can be killed
Cavalier advantages
3) Can command a lot more men than hero (major)
-
First you have to get the option appeared on your screen to even be able to use this. Second you have to get lucky to find few men. If you are unlucky, you may not get any man at all.

I think either this option needs to become more reliable thing where you can access it all the time but maybe with some restrictions or stupid just be stripped.
--
Combined with being unable to recruit more men than cavaliers + earning less honor, hero really isn't that good compare to cavalier.
--
I doubt this will be as good once the dev team adds that 'mortality button' feature since that will allow people to die from anything. Only being able to die on the field might not as appealing to some. Also, it is rather bloody hard to die.

Cavalier and hero recruitment limits are almost identical. Warrior/Cavaliers are given a small, handful more men than heroes. And Warrior/Cavaliers who recruit cavalry get a recruitment bonus above heroes. But other than that, their limits are identical.

I myself would be open to considering sentry units for heroes.
We could discuss adjusting the hero volunteer amounts or the frequency of its appearance. I notice the tell tales option much more frequently than the find volunteers.
I don't know about honour, but a hero could perhaps have a small chance of earning more prestige.

On one hand, you complain about heroes being killed. Then you complain about it being too difficult to be killed. Anyway, as it hasn't been noted - 2 instances of fame for a total of 4 points.

As to a tip for getting heroes killed - large numbers of men. With the revamped wound system some years ago, wounding is a progression from light to critical. So, the longer you hold in battle, the longer you're around to accrue wounds. Heroes are killed with a certain amount (serious?) of wounding. Finally, there is no plan or timeline on a mortality button, so far as I know.

[Zakilevo]

Sorry maybe I didn't make my point clear enough.

I am complaining about hero death because it might not become a special thing in the future. Like I have mentioned above, once the mortality button gets added, what is so special about dying? Sure you can get a total of 4 fame points but other than that what?

As for gaining more prestige, I do not think that is that important. Prestige is not that important in the game at the moment. Unless you are planning to change how it works. Honor is the most important factor as it directly relates to the number of man you can recruit. Unless you are thinking of making cavalries and SF's recruitment limit based on prestige, I don't think it will be that big of a change.

[GundamMerc]

Sorry maybe I didn't make my point clear enough.

I am complaining about hero death because it might not become a special thing in the future. Like I have mentioned above, once the mortality button gets added, what is so special about dying? Sure you can get a total of 4 fame points but other than that what?

As for gaining more prestige, I do not think that is that important. Prestige is not that important in the game at the moment. Unless you are planning to change how it works. Honor is the most important factor as it directly relates to the number of man you can recruit. Unless you are thinking of making cavalries and SF's recruitment limit based on prestige, I don't think it will be that big of a change.

Well, other than the fact that new players need prestige to gain a government office, no, it isn't important. And what other reason do you need to use a hero than the fame points? I think you might be somewhat misinformed as to the purpose of the class.

[Zakilevo]

Well, other than the fact that new players need prestige to gain a government office, no, it isn't important. And what other reason do you need to use a hero than the fame points? I think you might be somewhat misinformed as to the purpose of the class.

Being able to die is the main reason not fame points. Who cares about fame once you go past 20?

I really think we need to redo classes overall to make them more meaningful. Sure they are just sub-classes but they should be distinct.

[GundamMerc]

Being able to die is the main reason not fame points. Who cares about fame once you go past 20?

I really think we need to redo classes overall to make them more meaningful. Sure they are just sub-classes but they should be distinct.

You're forgetting that the Hero sub-class is one of the few that a newcomer is likely to be able to get into right away, as the other ones have much stricter requirements. Also, a newcomer isn't going to have 20 fame. The fact that you speak like that shows the very patronising attitude some of the older players of this game show, and the disconnect that they often have with newcomers. Just to point out this very thing, I've only gotten 9 fame on this current account. And I already know how to get some easy fame points by putting money back into family wealth, and sponsoring an army as a lord. A new player wouldn't even be aware that fame had any affect on his account, like increasing his noble limits or the like.

[Zakilevo]

You're forgetting that the Hero sub-class is one of the few that a newcomer is likely to be able to get into right away, as the other ones have much stricter requirements. Also, a newcomer isn't going to have 20 fame. The fact that you speak like that shows the very patronising attitude some of the older players of this game show, and the disconnect that they often have with newcomers. Just to point out this very thing, I've only gotten 9 fame on this current account. And I already know how to get some easy fame points by putting money back into family wealth, and sponsoring an army as a lord. A new player wouldn't even be aware that fame had any affect on his account, like increasing his noble limits or the like.

Trust me. Hero fame points aren't as easy to get as you think. I got to 20 fame in about a year without knowing much about the fame system. I had to ask around and to find out how to exactly get those points but I did get them at the end. You just need to put a bit of effort. If you just want everything to be spoon fed you, then you are playing a wrong game.

I also didn't get hero fame points until early this month. Just look over the fame box and see which points will get you the most points and go for those. It annoys me when you drag everything to old players vs new players for every topic.

I agree it would be nice to be able to get another noble at 10 fame instead of 20 however.