Author Topic: A recent outbreak of OOC discussion/complaints on nobles vs commoners in 2015  (Read 2651 times)

Frustent

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It's cropped up before, and though the only search results I could find relating to this topic in past happened in 2011:

Clear explanation of the difference between nobles and commoners.
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,148.0.html

Is Dwilight really SMA?
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,709.msg12980.html#msg12980

The medieval view of commoners
http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,260.msg3163.html#msg3163




...and here we are again in 2015... 4 years later... with a immensely similar complaint about players protecting commoners to some degree... and here's some of the OOC messages that recently burst into the public realm channel a few days ago on one of the game continents:

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Out-of-Character from NameRemoved   (6 hours, 16 minutes ago)
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I don't normally complain, about roleplay or anything else.  This is stupid.

Addies are peasants.  No Noble shall suffer indignity or disrespect of any kind from a peasant.  You don't get to make a guild that simultaneously relies on the gold of nobles and treats them as equal to peasants.  This 'no more no less than a Master Ranger' is bull!@#$, and is fostering a truly Unserious medieval atmosphere.

I was surprised when I started playing the adventurer game on the SMA island that there was a huge power imbalance in their favour.  They repair thr items, they keep monster/undead hordes at bay, they may sometimes scout faster than nobles could.

I think that the ooc desire for premium items, the fact we 'need' adventurers, and the fact we all likely have addie characters pushes us into complacency regarding the SMA realities kf peasant vs Noble life.  That is, you're all to nice to peasants and too insulting to your noble peers, and it's for Your Ooc knowledge that you don't want to piss off the addie 'or else' you won't get their services.

I'll report this if you all don't come to your senses.  Addy players: your recommendations mean jack all until you become a noble.  Stop metagaming your "you need me" attitudes and pretend you're actually in peril of  death or dismemberment if you piss off someone who has rights.  Don't take ooc or ic offense, because your addie is just a bloody peasant, regardless of aspiration, or eventual "proof of nobility".

Nobles, NameRemoved, you especially: stop respecting the peasants more than your peers, more than a goddamn Prince.  Stop offering legs for dogs to hide behind.  You lead by example, and this nonsense has gone on too long.


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Out-of-Character from NameRemoved   (5 hours, 46 minutes ago)
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Oh, will you freaking relax? You're going to file a report at us for being OOC?  Good luck with that.  I and many other here actually happen to be completely in-character.  It's got nothing to do with meta-game and everything to do with in-character self-interest, or personal morals, or what have you.

Your way of playing is not the only way and not every noble has to view peasants as worth less than a prince just because you want them to.  If you have a problem with that, you're free to go cry in the forum or play it off accordingly and let us pay in-game for the decisions we make.  Hell, you're right.  The Prince of Fissoa COULD get angry at this and take it up above our heads.  That wouldn't even be hard to do for my character as NameRemoved is a freaking lord in Fissoa, so speaking out here should probably have some very real in-game consequences, very soon I'd expect.   It'd be almost unnatural if NameRemoved didn't suffer some major consequences.  But I knew that before I posted in-character and am kind of looking forward to how it plays out, so will you not be a stick in the mud please? 

Some nobles have very real, very in-character pragmatic reasons to show 'respect' to commoners, especially commoners that serve the roles these adventurers do.  The reality is that-- yes-- commoners that are willing to fight monsters-- especially here in Dwilight, where entire civilizations and a continent were destroyed because of such beasts-- are absolutely valuable, and their role in society doesn't negate the importance of that. 

Think of it like the Witcher series, if you're familiar with that.  Geralt is no noble but often he'll get the chance to talk directly with Kings and Lords and say some pretty... disrespectful things to them, compared to any other noble, and get away with it because his function is just that important.  It doesn't mean he's not afraid or doesn't hold his tongue when in the presence of someone who is likely to throw him in jail or have him killed.  But it also doesn't mean most nobility are willing to do so and there are some that would outright balk at their superiors and fellow highborns than toss up with him. 

So yeah, some of us would lash out at other lords/royals/etc when they're making moves that actively hurt these peasants, as doing so damages our own character's desires and personal motivations.  That can even go as far as to mean that to some of us, a certain commoner or group of commoners can be worth more to us personally than even a prince! 

Now, he's free to roleplay that naturally, take offense in-character, and let his actions expand beyond this guild.  That's honestly alright and I'd consider that pretty cool.  Hell, I stand to lose a LOT as result.  But then, my character has his own reasons for choosing to support the adventurers in the guild and being willing to speak out against his betters.  But that's for me to know and you all to find out. 

There's no need to take this out-of-character though. 

 




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Out-of-Character from NameRemoved   (4 hours, 12 minutes ago)
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Like NameRemoved said, there are very good, pragmatic reasons for nobles to treat adventurers with respect. While the wiki says that commoners don't have rights, it is not a rule. The NameRemoved is a guild, with its own internal hierarchy and its own internal rules; it is not a stretch to think that the commoners in the guild have at least some form of protection. Hell, it's practically required for the guild to function.

Stubbornly holding on to the fact that commoners don't have rights is arguably more OOC than the opposite. Our characters are people, and people have different attitudes and personalities. A grizzled warrior, who has spent most of his life among common soldiers, will have a greater respect for them than a courtier would. And no matter their personality, everyone would understand that it is necessary to bend the rules to keep society working. Nobles need adventurers, and if maintaining their support means giving them a few rights, then so be it.

Personally, my character would most definitely protest what NameRemoved did. He has been fighting with commoners for years, and has even raised a few to knighthood for their service. He is a Hero, which means he frequently spends time among commoners and has gathered quite a reputation among them. He has a moral code that values worth over station, because a good soldier is a good soldier, no matter if they were knighted or not. Finally, he is not the type to mince words; if he thinks you're an ass, he will make that perfectly clear, and damn the consequences.

That is how I play my character, and how I have played him since I joined this game. If you think that I can't play him like that, or that I am playing him wrong, then you're being an ass.


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Out-of-Character from NameRemoved   (2 hours, 50 minutes ago)
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Hi folks, before I dive into deeper things, NameRemoved's player has made mentioned a pretty similar suggestion/thought that I was thinking of which seemed to tackle the problem of some players (and their characters) not receiving the heavy load of letters and/or reports from adventurer characters in the Guild.  I'm pretty sure there is a mechanic already somewhat along those lines -- the game differentiates Guild ranks into a 'Senior' category already I think; but that's about it.  You could have 4 sub-ranks of 'Senior' ranks for example, and the game will show a button that says 'Send message to all Senior members of the Guild', and it will do so.  As for manually being able to setup any number of lower ranked message groups within a Guild though, I haven't seen any indication that feature is implemented for Guilds, could be a suggestion for the forums to the devs and let them consider it.

The second part of all this excitement seems to be rooted in an old Battlemaster topic that rears it's head every once in awhile over the years throughout the community, in different realms -- the treatment of peasants from nobility in the game atmosphere.  Tom set a very strict standard over 7-10 years ago where he felt (and literally encouraged/enforced in policies he wrote up) that this game was going to take a very serious medieval spirit where nobles would always treat commoners as pigs and that nobles should exist in the BM world always thinking 'em to be unworthy of anything besides pretty much slavery and worse.

Tom's word still exists throughout many generations of BM players whom were around the game back then, and are still here today.  This OOC discussion has been had many times on both the forums and in the game; if you feel it's beyond an IC argument to have between characters, and instead needs to be addressed OOC; you can always try putting up another forum thread trying to ask for clarification (or maybe even try to suggest change if you desire) on the official strictness and outlook nobility characters in this game ought to have towards commoners across the board -- no wiggle room for grey or sympathetic characters to peasantry at all, etc.  You might get the same answer as before, or you might stir enough interest in the community to make new changes to the policy and the amount of strictness characters should/should not have towards commoners here in the game.

I'm fine with how things are right now, personally -- some characters take the more sympathetic view towards peasants and commoners, and you've got the folk who are more the standard noble treating 'em as nothing less than something to never look at, never speak of, never interact with.  There were surely some oddball cases of nobility caring more for peasantry then they ought to back in the real medieval period, and they suffered consequences for it.  Here in the game called Battlemaster, those consequences can be equally played out IC.  If your wanting an OOC blanket-wide ban on characters ever even being allowed to be RP'd like that by players at all -- it's best to get that clarified with the devs on the forums.  Besides, a more recent case to refer to in the public forums might help other realms/players across the rest of the game be reminded of what is officially allowed or not -- and might reduce the chance of these OOC flare-ups from happening again for a good while.

This is the only grey OOC message you'll see from me about all this, I'm headin' back in-game now!




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Out-of-Character from NameRemoved   (52 minutes ago)
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I think the game mechanics as they are heavily disincentivize RPing Tom's strict noble attitude towards commoners.  I agree with NameRemoved's player that Nobles really do *need* adventurers, and more generally, realms need Players.  Making life miserable for players by making their character's life miserable will drive away  many players.  I think if we all treated Commoners as the dirt nobles are theoretically supposed to (generally) view them as, it'd be more miserable to play adventurers, and (despite that being the point) less people would do so, and there'd be a lot more problems with Monsters (and a lot less items around).  Ye Olde Double-Edged Sword.   I think there's a difference between RPing an internal disdain for the commoners and RPing active abuse of them.  That seems to me to be a matter of personal taste and choice, so not likely to succeed on a complaint?

That said... just ... well Saying ICly that your character agrees commoners are not equal to nobles doesn't really change the fact that you are treating them as equals (in the sense of preferring to protect them despite them insulting a peer; valuing their comfort, convenience, 'efficiency' over a peer's; declaring that the Guild makes everyone in it just what rank they are in the Guild - not noble/commoner; valuing the item repair/monster hunting service over a noble's birthright; etc.).

Solution time:  If nobles were ALSO able to repair, find items, hunt monster bands, whatever like commoners do (and risk death, etc.), then there'd be no dependency upon them, and there'd be no real incentive beyond personal preference and social judgments to pander somewhat unreasonably to the unwashed masses.  Commoners in that scenario would be grateful to get the work they would get, and would actually be beholden to the nobles who employ them.  Nobles would still have incentive to provide work to the commoners since they would likely rather be busy with more noble pursuits (or just don't want to get their hands dirty).  Rogue or landless nobles would have more things to do, and the "valuableness" of the service the Commoners provide would be put in its proper SMA context.  Nobles "could" just do the stuff themselves, but would rather not lower themselves, so they delegate a slave to do it and maybe reward if they feel like it.  Conducting the Service = Low, and to be done by the Low, but Nobles COULD just deal with it themselves, so no job security.  More importantly, there'd be more CHOICE for the gameplay to match RP (or vice versa).

Contrast that with the game mechanics as-is, where the services Cannot be conducted by anyone by the commoners, so the service is much more subject to supply & demand based on players choosing to play commoners.  Therefore almost everybody views that service as 'honourable' for the commoners to conduct, instead of "low", and their characters thusly foster an IC respect for the common folk, who literally do what they cannot.  RP informed heavily by the gameplay mechanics.

Mixed messages, I guess, from Tom then.  Be serious, but here's some game mechanics that mean your character's life will be harder for being serious.

Is it like this on all the islands that aren't SMA?


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Out-of-Character from NameRemoved   (9 minutes ago)
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You make a lot of good points, but I disagree on one thing. There is a big difference between treating a commoner well and treating them like an equal, the wiki even covers this.

Commoners are like cattle. They're dumb, there are a lot of them, and they're useful. They are also much less useful when treated badly. If you starve and mistreat the cow, it's not gonna do its job very well. Therefore, it is in the best interests of the owner to treat them well. It's the same for commoners, except there's the risk they might kill you if you mistreat them too much. There's a pragmatic reason to give them rights and protect them, because they do their job better then.

You can also respect someone without believing they are equal. A master can appreciate the value of one of his slaves, or even like them (or hell, love them), while still acknowledging that he is superior to them, whether innately or in status.

But really, all this is beside the point. The fact of the matter is that what may be true societally may not be true personally. What I mean by that is that commoners are, as a rule, lower status than nobles, and have far fewer rights. You can't suddenly form a realm that treats everyone as equal, because that's stupid and breaks the game. However, that shouldn't prevent a noble from deeply respecting a commoner and holding them in higher regard than some nobles (because really, if the choice was between a peasant who saved your life several times and a noble who's an !@#$%^&, who would you pick?). All it means is that there may be IC consequences for that (if say you killed a noble to protect a commoner, you'll still get banned for killing the noble).














Should we just point some of these people to this thread where Tom wrote specifically in 2011 about there being no discussion about this rule or exceptions (click here),

There can be no discussion about this. Remember the motto of the French Revolution? It had "equality" in it. What does that tell you? That the idea was REVOLUTIONARY - in 1783!!!

In the middle ages, it was unthinkable. Any Adventurer voicing such thoughts should be immediately executed as an anarchist. Any Noble should lose at least half his prestige and honor.



or even here


"Standing up for" is not the question. You can even like those peasants. But even the thought that they are of the same kind as you is alien to people of that age. That's like saying men and women are equal - in 1700. Or that whites and blacks are equal in 1800. People would look at you and try to find out if you are insane or just failed horribly at making a joke. The thought that you're serious would cross their mind last.

It's a bit difficult for us to understand. Try to see peasants as animals. Sure you can be for animal rights, and against harming them, but very few animal rights activists actually say that animals are equal to humans. On the contrary, many of those defending them are more or less secretly believing very strongly in the difference, because the are acting protectively - in the matter you act towards subordinates or children, not in the matter you'd act towards equals.


Excellent summary.


and here?

No. They are inequal, period. Whether or not to act on that is a nonsensical question. There is gravity. The question whether or not to act according to that doesn't make sense. How you deal with it can be different from person to person, but not that you deal with it.




Should anything be done about this?  Let it keep popping up as a controversial subject every few years, and continue to deal with it on a case-by-case thing?  Sending players to those links of Tom's Final Say on the Matter, each time?  Should players already be reporting these other players for punishment if sending them links to Tom's posts don't work? 

Indirik

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The subject of advies is definitely one that comes up quite often. I think Tom was quite clear in his posts on the topic. Advies are commoners. No commoner is ever the equal of a noble, let alone a superior. No noble could possibly ever think differently, unless he was clearly and obviously insane.

However, that does not mean that a character needs to conduct daily beatings of all of his commoners. He doesn't have to treat every commoner like they routinely bathe in filth and have carnal relations with pigs. You *can* be polite to them. You *can* respect their skills. Highly skilled commoners would definitely be very valuable and well rewarded for their work.

But even so, they are still commoners. Even the best of commoners is *still* a commoner. Even the lowliest of nobles is *still* a noble. *Any* noble is superior to *any* commoner. That's the entire basis of the medieval society upon which BM is modeled. If a commoner mouths off to a noble, then every noble who hears it *should* take that commoner to task over their disrespect. You don't give him a pass because, hey, I might want him to do something for me one day.

You can give them some protections in your realm laws. Say, no beatings or imprisonment without just cause, or no confiscating items from them that belong to other nobles. The key here is what you consider "just cause". If Sir Kepler says "That commoner insulted me, and should be whipped!", then a noble's first reaction should be "Whip that cur!", not "Let's hear the commoner's side of the story". The very fact that Kepler says he was insulted constitutes just cause for the beating. After all, Kepler is a noble, and that commoner is, well, a commoner. Seeking to hear the commoner's side of the story is a insult to Kepler. Actually believing the commoner over Kepler? That's a horrible insult to Kepler, and a very bad reflection upon the noble that accepted a commoner's word over a noble's. It's an attack on the very foundations of society. Is it arbitrary and unfair? Of course. Sucks to be a commoner, eh?

If your realm law requires a trial before a noble can beat a commoner, *you're doing it wrong*! If the noble said it happened, then it happened, and nothing the commoner says should change that in anyone's mind.

If your guild somehow treats adventurers as superior, or even equal, to nobles, *you're doing it wrong*! A commoner is still a commoner, regardless of what rank your guild gives them. If they have poor enough judgment to issue orders to a noble, then every noble in that guild should jump up and demand that they be punished for their effrontery. If you chastise a noble because he was rude to a commoner that may have a higher rank than the noble, then you're doing it wrong. In fact, I wonder why we even let advies be full members of guilds at all. These are noble societies, not trade guilds.

The key thing to remember is that advies are commoners. They are inferiors, and should be treated as such. No noble would claim otherwise. As Tom says: It's like gravity. Different people deal with it in different ways, but claiming it's not true is insanity.
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Zakilevo

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Just beat the crap out of all advies you see like me. Also, who cares about unique items. They don't matter much. Don't need some commoners for that!

Indirik

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Just beat the crap out of all advies you see like me
Do you remember that secret society in Barca that was making a game out of killing advies? They would lure them in with promises of work, then beat them, capture them, and have the judge execute them. I'm not sure how many they got before they were discovered and ousted. I think they may have then moved to Luria, but weren't really established there.

Totally assholish, but not against the rules.
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Zakilevo

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Oh there was a SS dedicated to it? How come nobody contacted me :o

Lacedaemon

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Eastern Dwilight realms are just too kind and civilized I say.

Barca, Asylon and Niselur seemed far more untamed.