Author Topic: Character limit changes  (Read 57619 times)

Zakilevo

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #45: October 30, 2015, 02:59:47 AM »
I agree. If your realm is collapsing because you can't have fillers, then too bad. Your realm should have collapsed long ago.

Indirik

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #46: October 30, 2015, 03:48:03 AM »
The mass exodus of nobles will cause some realms to collapse entirely, and I'm fairly sure there will be no mass influx of nobles to compensate.
See, that's part of the problem: Otherwise nonviable realms propped up by dual characters. If people move out, and spread out to other islands, then more realms will be viable, and viable because they actually have more than, say, 4 players in them.

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I know I will not be among any such influx, as I have no desire to play on the other continents for various reasons.
What reasons? If you don't tell us, we can't know, and make any possible changes, if needed.

Also, if you haven't played on an island in the past two years, then realize that you effectively haven't played on that island at all. (Except for AT...)


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I will be finding the game far less enjoyable due to this exercise of ignoring player feedback.
Not acting on feedback does not mean it's being ignored. We are here and listening. We're just, at this point, going to disagree with you.

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If you want to stop players from having two characters in a realm to artificially support themselves, create a one character per realm rule rather than this overbearing and unnecessary restriction.
That only solves one, and minor, problem of multiple characters. Two characters with significant power in different realms are undoubtedly more powerful than in separate realms. If anything, an I'm not saying this is what we would do, I would force both characters to be in the *same* realm. This addresses the problems of unduly large influence, unbreakable alliance, unrealistic/unfairly reliable communication, etc.

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And for a roleplaying game, where is the concern for the arbitrary violation of many player's long RP lines for the sake of this no-improvement change?
You're saying that you're not willing to slightly adjust your RP for the sake of a better, healthier game? That maintaining your two-character-on-an-island RP is more important than helping make the game better, and more active/dynamic, for everyone?

The point of this change is to help make the game better. More active. More vibrant. More dynamic. For everyone. If the players are willing to play along and give it a try, then I have no doubt that we can make this work.
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Eirikr

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #47: October 30, 2015, 04:36:12 AM »
I'm committing a cardinal sin of replying on such a post without first reading all the replies, but...

I find myself in a very peculiar position. I've got a whole lot of talk around me about how this is a terrible, awful move and it will kill so much of Battlemaster... but yet I've been playing like this for years. I chalk it up a bit to different strokes, but my point here is really: Give it a shot. You can still make things happen with just one character. It may feel like more work, but I guarantee you'll also feel more accomplished. Especially when someone else gives you that metaphorical "high five" letter. I'm not saying that doesn't happen with two characters, but it does feel less genuine.

dustole

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #48: October 30, 2015, 06:25:45 AM »
I personally am looking forward to these changes and just recently came back after a couple month pause.
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Ketchum

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #49: October 30, 2015, 08:15:16 AM »
*Raise my hand up for being guilty myself*

Look like I need migrate my characters then. Hmmmm, just when I got my secondary character win the sword tournament recently :o
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #50: October 30, 2015, 09:03:39 AM »
I have four characters in two realms on two continents.

My first character fought when his realm had been reduced to a single city and helped reverse the long slide into oblivion.  He has been a ruler on both Beluaterra and Atamara.  And a general and a duke as well.

My second character has been a proud warrior.  She has killed a king in battle.  And now she is the high priestess of the largest religion on her continent.

My third character has been a ruler, a general, a banker, and a judge.  He has been a priest in the largest religion on Dwilight.  He has seen realms die, he has seen them rebuild, and he has seen war.  Now he has returned to his homeland where he fights.

My fourth character is downright boring next to them.  But he is a banker now and he rather enjoys going out and breaking stuff a lot.  It is his great hope to soon be striking down an enemy capital.  And he loves commanding rank upon rank of archers.  Massed arrow fire can bring down anything.

I have played on the Colonies, Dwilight, the war islands, Atamara, and Beluaterra.  In the end, I preferred the experience of playing on Atamara and Beluaterra and have left the other continents as I found them...less enjoyable.  I do not feel guilty about this choice.  There is nothing for me to feel guilty about.  I am playing this game in the way I enjoy it, and I am seeking to make the game more enjoyable for others by tearing down the old alliances.

The League of the Eagle on Atamara for instance has won.  In a game designed to have no winners we have fought for years and years through careful planning and politics to defeat all comers and now rule the continent.  We recently had a discussion about that and decided it was time to mix things up.  To scramble the continent up a lot.  We've broken up two federations with only one more to go.  And the wars and rumors of wars have already commenced.  And something that has been building for months has finally boiled over into open conflict.  I'm rather looking forward to seeing how it turns out myself as it promises to be one almighty shakeup.  All aimed with the purpose of making things more exciting for every player on the continent.

Some people here seem to act as if having two characters is a sin or something.  I take the opportunity to play two different game styles and rather enjoy it.  It is fun.  This is a game after all.  Fun is the whole idea, yes?

Gabanus family

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #51: October 30, 2015, 12:03:11 PM »
The problem is that the majority of 2 chars on a continent cause problems. If they are in different realms, they both tend to become too powerfull and you get problems of them working together. Enough examples within the league of eagles, but also elsewhere. The problem with 2 chars in one realm is that usually one is 'braindead'.

WHen I started again with BM, I tried to go on different continents in stead because of that reason. On Atamara I do have two chars, but separated them on purpose with one disliking the other. Plus Talerium and Caergoth are lightyears away from each other. There will be cases of players 'doing it right' with 2 chars, but many don't which created a problem. Even though it'll be annoying for me also to move a char, I do understand why this decision was made.

And as everyone said, all continents have changed a lot in the recent periods so why not give it a go? Even Atamara is now changing as you and I both know.
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Dante Silverfire

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #52: October 30, 2015, 01:20:54 PM »
I'm sorry but this whole idea that the League of the Eagle having won a continent in a game not intended for a continent to ever be won is the best example of the problem we have. It would not have been possible for the League of the Eagle to have "Won" without two characters per player within the league for most players. This is one of their core advantages that they have had forever. The number of players with multiple characters within the league is huge compared to any other example. (Without concrete data on the subject. Although, I think Tim looked at this years ago.)

The League is also the pinnacle example of having created a toxic game atmosphere on an island. You say the league was seeking to win for many years and careful planning got you there but that's not a good thing. That systematic approach of killing off all enemies without any internal conflict has caused many people to leave Atamara and the game. And ALL of that is built upon double characters. One in CE, one in Tara. Two in CE, Two in Tara. One in CE, one in Talerium. And all sorts of combos. I know it was almost like an unofficial policy years ago when I played in CE. It made the armies ridiculously powerful.
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Medron Pryde

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #53: October 30, 2015, 03:15:38 PM »
It wasn't dual characters that won Atamara.  If it was that powerful someone else would have done it.

Superior strategy turned the tide.

I was there, many many moons ago when Tara was down to a single city and two other regions.  I and a bunch of friends who play BattleTech were looking to play an internet computer game together and one of us suggested we come play BattleMaster.  He told us about a nation on the verge of collapse that we could help save and we decided to try it out.

A whole bunch of us joined Tara at once and we did turn the tide.  That and the fact that Cagil fought with us in almost every battle.  Regstav was one of those first two characters.  Yao Ling was the other.  Yao Ling is now High Priestess of the largest religion on Beluaterra.  And after going to Beluaterra and being deported by Daimons, Regstav came back to Tara...and was just recently elected to the Tyrancy of Tara.

Saying that dual characters won Atamara is just wrong.  If it was that easy, anyone would have done it.  What won Atamara is Cagil and Tara.  After that fight for survival I took part in, Tara has been utterly and completely loyal to Cagil.  Tara owed its life to Cagil, and every character I've ever had that played in Tara has always reminded every new generation of Taran of that debt.  We owe them our life.  They stood with us and so we stand with them.  Period.  End of Line.

That made a core of two realms that would never fight each other right in the heart of Atamara.  And then Cagilan diplomacy brought in a series of other nations to support that core alliance in war after war until we slowly just marched across the entire continent.  One diplomatic alliance after another, each predicated on the fact that everybody knew that Tara would never abandon Cagil, and that the two of us would fight like demons to protect the other.

That is what won Atamara.  An alliance between nations based on a literal life debt that nothing would shake.  And an amazing series of diplomatic successes by Cagil.  I have watched them for years, and I've been amazed by what they have managed to pull off time and again over the years.

Diplomacy and loyalty were what did it.

Dual characters didn't do that.  *snort*  Like I said, if dual characters could do something like that, everybody would be doing it on every continent.  And they aren't.

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #54: October 30, 2015, 03:19:34 PM »
Dual characters didn't do that.  *snort*  Like I said, if dual characters could do something like that, everybody would be doing it on every continent.  And they aren't.

Except that that's an overly simplistic view that overlooks a lot of factors.

For instance, what if people on other continents are less interested in having a giant alliance "win" the whole continent?

Or what if people on other continents are less likely to want to have multiple characters in one realm or alliance?

There are a lot of elements of Atamara's atmosphere that attract particular kinds of people and lend themselves to particular kinds of strategies. It's possible that loading up on doublets wouldn't be as powerful on other continents due to the different dynamics. I don't know—but then, I don't believe anyone's actually claiming that loading up on doublets is the one and only reason that the CE bloc has conquered Atamara.

But if you don't think that it's a significant contributor to the bloc's success, then you're in denial.
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Indirik

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #55: October 30, 2015, 03:28:52 PM »
People have done it on other continents. And it took Tom's personal intervention on EC to break it up.

You cannot deny that multiple characters was a significant contributing factor. (Well you can deny it, but you'd be wrong.) Not the only factor, of course. There's no denying that your war machine was very good. But quite a lot of what you're describing is rooted in the advantages provided by that. No one is claiming deliberate abuse.

You worked within the limits and rules of the game, and that's fine. It's just that note the rules are changing.
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GundamMerc

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #56: October 30, 2015, 04:14:53 PM »
Medron Pryde, I'm one of those people from the battletech site that you're from, and I agree with Indirik on this. Dual characters have played a huge role in making Atamara toxic. Oh, and by the way, winning a game that doesn't have a winner isn't winning, it's forcing everyone else out of the game.

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #57: October 30, 2015, 04:38:54 PM »
If these adventurers we've been allowed become nobles, will we be forced to remove one of our then two nobles from the continent before playing? I don't enjoy playing advies to begin with, but if I'm forced to remove a character after going through months of playing a char I don't enjoy...ugh. I'll give the new change a try, but that's like the straw that breaks the camel's back for me.

The AT alliance block has been a poison for years, and I avoided the continent because of it for a long time, periodically recreating a character there to see if anything had (or could've) been changed. I find it ironic that the same month the League has OOC discussions about major changes to break up the block and revive the continent, it's essentially forced on us with no discussion or forewarning whatsoever...it would've been more fun in my opinion if some of the brainstorming that took place there had been implemented. I wish the League had evolved to this level of understanding sooner.
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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #58: October 30, 2015, 04:58:13 PM »
There's a feature request on the bugtracker now to remind me to enable emigration at the same time as ennoblement.

Medron Pryde

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #59: October 30, 2015, 05:06:27 PM »
Oh, it does absolutely help a war machine to have two characters.  That's common sense.

But that's not what turned the tide on Atamara.  It MAY have helped during the initial fighting when I showed up.  But I mostly remember that we were stretching the ability of Foda to support the army.  Even though we had lots of nobles, we couldn't effectively recruit up to what we could lead because Foda didn't make enough money.  So we were limited by the economy on how much we could field.  What I remember making the difference in that war was Cagil.  They showed up at every big battle and turned the tide in our favor.

And after that, Tara and Cagil have been absolutely linked at the hip and have not fought each other.  Ever.  And every time someone threatened either of us, we helped each other take them out.  And most of the time Cagil talked someone else into fighting on our side using diplomatic footwork that was amazing to watch.  Or got someone else to agree to stand out of the fight.  Or started another war up to get their attention.  It's always been something.

You can try to hang the blame on dual characters all you want, but that's not what's made the difference in Atamara.

It's Cagilan diplomacy that did it.  In every single war that has happened in the entire time I've played the game, the Cagilans have bought, cajoled, or negotiated just enough nations over to our side that we've won.  Every single time.  And each time we take over a city or two.  And when you add that up in years, you get the situation we are in now, where that boughten and cajoled alliance of nations on top of the Taran/Cagilan alliance is just plain dominant over everything else.

Which did bring stagnation to Atamara.  Which is why we decided to break things up before this "fix" was suggested.  We came up with the conclusion that only two things could break the dominance we'd forged.  Tom or the Devs coming in and breaking things up.  Or we players agreeing to break things up.  Because we'd pushed things to the point that no alliance of nations outside our alliance could ever again threaten us.  We'd won.  And that's no fun for people in other nations.  So we agreed to break things up, and then came up with a real good IC reason, built on a very long IC history, to do it.

We've got the same minds that have spent the better part of a decade turning the Taran/Cagilan brotherhood into the dominant powerbloc of an entire continent now devoted to tearing it back down.

Atamara is in for some exciting times.  And I can't wait to see what the other players do with that.