Author Topic: Character limit changes  (Read 58157 times)

Indirik

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #180: November 20, 2015, 04:47:53 AM »
Never in my time in BM have I seen people bring 100 siege engines in a single battle from a single realm.
I have. :) It makes walls kinda ineffective.

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SEs don't really help you win against 42k(30k militia) CS of defenders though. Sure you will mitigate the wall advantage a bit but then what? You don't see realms being able to field 42k CS anymore. At best Sirion can field 25k CS but they can only bring 70% of that even with a 2 turn move. So at the end, Oligarch is literally unbreakable because Sirion can't make people bring more than 50 SEs and more men - they are maxed out already.
Yes, SEs *really* do help. A lot. But you still need to bring the troops, and the right kind of troops. Sirion has way too many archers to siege a city. That's why realms that got really serious about sacking cities bring almost exclusively infantry. Archers suck at besieging cities. If you want to take the walls, you *have* to have infantry.

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Also, SEs take forever to be created... If you take 2 months to get ready, your enemies will probably be ready to repel you more.
Sirion has what, 7 cities? That's seven places to build SEs. And they have had more than enough time to have built lots of workshops. And lots and lots of gold. I doubt any of their cities have even been attacked in years, if ever. At 7 cities, 2 SE per day each, 14 siege engines total. Seven days for 98 engines. More than enough time to build 100 for a siege.

But yes, besieging cities these days sucks. No argument from me there. 30kCS militia? That's just sick.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #181: November 20, 2015, 05:00:20 AM »
I think the main problem for sieging is you can't force people to change their unit type.

Sure you can ask the whole realm to 'get more infantry!' but if people don't give a damn or they have been with their units for so long their captains have over +10 bonuses, who want to switch over anyway? You really can't do much about unit compositions. Have to work with what you have. There is of course a dirty way to force people to recruit a certain type of unit like getting rid of all archer RCs and etc but it is just a dumb idea which costs a lot.

Sirion has 5 cities. 2 SEs every day will get you 10 a day so to get 100 you will have to wait 10 days. Do you still have to travel to other cities to pick them up or can you pick them up in your own capital? Also, this isn't just about Sirion.  How do you expect a single city realm to besiege a city with lv5 wall? You will have to sit in your city for 50 days. Or bring 5 single city states if you want to sack a city in 5 days. I don't know how many we will gain/lose from the limit change per continent but I doubt we will get enough to sack a city like even 2 years ago. Nowadays it is just flat out 'don't you dare attack a city'. Even if you win, you get tossed out by peasants.

I think maybe instead of making people pick up multiple SEs, why not just make people pick up 1 SE per person. So you don't have to make a few people to carry 10 each? Instead maybe people should be only able to pick up 1 per person but more you gather for a battle, the more synergy you get out of?

Anyway, the siege problem is not just one or two things causing it. It is a complex problem affected by multiple changes over the years.

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #182: November 20, 2015, 12:34:15 PM »
I think the main problem for sieging is you can't force people to change their unit type.

Sure you can ask the whole realm to 'get more infantry!' but if people don't give a damn or they have been with their units for so long their captains have over +10 bonuses, who want to switch over anyway? You really can't do much about unit compositions. Have to work with what you have. There is of course a dirty way to force people to recruit a certain type of unit like getting rid of all archer RCs and etc but it is just a dumb idea which costs a lot.

Sirion has 5 cities. 2 SEs every day will get you 10 a day so to get 100 you will have to wait 10 days. Do you still have to travel to other cities to pick them up or can you pick them up in your own capital? Also, this isn't just about Sirion.  How do you expect a single city realm to besiege a city with lv5 wall? You will have to sit in your city for 50 days. Or bring 5 single city states if you want to sack a city in 5 days. I don't know how many we will gain/lose from the limit change per continent but I doubt we will get enough to sack a city like even 2 years ago. Nowadays it is just flat out 'don't you dare attack a city'. Even if you win, you get tossed out by peasants.

I think maybe instead of making people pick up multiple SEs, why not just make people pick up 1 SE per person. So you don't have to make a few people to carry 10 each? Instead maybe people should be only able to pick up 1 per person but more you gather for a battle, the more synergy you get out of?

Anyway, the siege problem is not just one or two things causing it. It is a complex problem affected by multiple changes over the years.

Oligarch is honestly a special case though. Most cities don't have that much CS. I have been in multiple battles where the attacker brought over 100 siege engines. I was a military attacking leader in one or two of them.

You really do need to bring close to that 1SE per 10 men to fully neutralize the lvl 5 walls.

Finally, on the topic of unit type that really only means one thing. Sirion's nobles don't actually care enough about defeating Oligarch. If they did, then people would all drop their archer and cavalry units for infantry.

If they choose not to do so, then the leaders of Sirion haven't done a good enough job of convincing them of the need. If they can't do that, then the attacks should fail regardless. The whole concept of the "they don't give a damn" is your root problem.

And again, Oligarch is a special case. It's strong enough to hold you off, which the Duke apparently planned for. He won. That's how it works sometimes.

I agree something should be done with tweaking some balance, but there are so many things you could do to improve your advantage, it would make sense to start there first.
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Indirik

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #183: November 20, 2015, 04:46:12 PM »
You won't get any argument from me that sieges are hard, especially now. I get it. But even so, Sirion could have done better.

Don't forget that strongholds can make SEs, too.

I opened a thread somewhere about militia and sieges. There were some decent ideas about it there.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #184: November 20, 2015, 06:57:58 PM »
You won't get any argument from me that sieges are hard, especially now. I get it. But even so, Sirion could have done better.

Don't forget that strongholds can make SEs, too.

I opened a thread somewhere about militia and sieges. There were some decent ideas about it there.

Pretty sure you can only build demolition tools there. The last time I checked, SE workshop was unavailable.

I am not arguing that Sirion is sucking a lot at the moment. Just that I hope Oligarch stays as a rare case and not a common case in the future. The size of Oligarch does make things easier since even with 30k miltia, the city still generates enough income for everyone. I wouldn't compare a monster like that with other cities but there are 3 more cities that can do that on EC - Perdan, Sirion and Ibladesh. Probably even more on Dwilight since Dwilight cities are richer.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 07:01:00 PM by Lapallanch »

Dante Silverfire

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #185: November 20, 2015, 08:20:17 PM »
Dwilight is less comparable though because of the system of circle townslands that start to allow better siege mechanics. While super cities exist, it's much easier to contain people in them.
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feyeleanor

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #186: November 21, 2015, 03:48:28 AM »
feyeleanor: those are some great ideas. Unfortunately, the vast majority of them will require to much coding work to even consider. I wish we could, but we can't. We have to work with what we have, and the minimal time available to do new things.

I do appreciate that. If I had spare time myself I'd help with Dev, but I don't. Well, not without giving up playing :o

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #187: November 21, 2015, 04:24:05 PM »
Dante you do know btw that both Lapallanch and myself play in Oligarch right ;-)

It's possible that Oligarch is a special case, I don't know. What I do know is that as long as cities can't be starved and you can recruit so much militia while still making gold, the wars get rather rediculous. Agreed, Sirion is sucking a lot atm, no argument there. Also the 30k militia is/was not the limit of Oligarch, I can go farther than that.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #188: November 21, 2015, 06:04:22 PM »
I am pretty sure Garas can put at least 10k more. That makes it 40k. With 30k the city requires half of its income to maintain it. So from looking at this you can imagine how much more CS Oligarch can support. At most, the city can support 60k militia with 10~15k mobile.

Derek

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #189: November 22, 2015, 08:07:36 PM »
So when is the official start date for the character limits?  If the implementation date hasn't been explicitly and unequivocally specified before, then this should be done as soon as possible to be fair to the players.

Indirik

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #190: November 22, 2015, 09:38:43 PM »
There is still one fix that needs to happen before we can do anything. Tom needs to fix an admin interface before we can set the date. Once he does that, we will make an announcement. We do not want to delay any more than necessary, but we can't set a schedule until the admin interface is fixed.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #191: November 22, 2015, 09:50:57 PM »
There is still one fix that needs to happen before we can do anything. Tom needs to fix an admin interface before we can set the date. Once he does that, we will make an announcement. We do not want to delay any more than necessary, but we can't set a schedule until the admin interface is fixed.

Any estimate on when Tom will fix the admin interface?

Indirik

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #192: November 22, 2015, 10:17:47 PM »
I wish there was.
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Zakilevo

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #193: November 22, 2015, 10:21:30 PM »
I wish there was.
Aww.... Well it looks like Tom is back from his vacation at least. Maybe he will take a look.

feyeleanor

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Re: Character limit changes
« Reply #194: November 23, 2015, 11:10:59 PM »
Can we at least have a period of advance warning (i.e. a fixed date) before the change occurs? A week or two in which to disentangle from ongoing commitments would make this less traumatic for everyone.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 11:15:46 PM by feyeleanor »