Which interesting realms to join in Dwilight?

[Ossan]

D'Hara was being ignored on their island fortress.

What, Luria not up for another mass genocide? Sounds like they had a lot of fun the last time they did that.

[Vita`]

The difference is in *who* is being genocided. Luria genocided a population of D'Harans, yes. They're not so intent on genociding themselves against D'Haran walls.

Anyway, fwiw, the policy against Port Nebel (starvation) is now seen as sinful and evil within Luria (there's some holdouts still, but not amongst lurian royalty) and antithetical to the bloodstars. That came from seeing how that style of warfare affected the playerbase within Luria at the time. By and large, it was not a fun experience for lurian players.

[Ossan]

Neat-o, I suspect that a number of people who participated in it probably aren't around anymore anyway.

[EstionTarcyn]

Well it would be only Luria if Astrum's ruler had come to his senses during the peace talks with Helyg Derwyddon. This is a war born of Astrum's own stubbornness. Especially now that they will soon have a chance to reclaim some of the West.

I was part of some of the peace negotiations, and there it actually wasn't objectively Astrum's fault. It was Helyg Derwyddon who suddenly stopped responding to an offer that was very fair and very similar to the HD offer to Astrum. They subsequently ignored their offer, claiming they hadn't received it, and withdrew from the negotiations without much reason.

That being said this is the only negotiation I have been a part of, and I am sure there have been quite a few failed negotiations between all parts involved. I love the intricate intrigue and politics of this Island. People who want to join, you really should, it's awesome.

[Vita`]

Well, aren't you just a bundle of joy.

[Indirik]

I was part of some of the peace negotiations, and there it actually wasn't objectively Astrum's fault. It was Helyg Derwyddon who suddenly stopped responding to an offer that was very fair and very similar to the HD offer to Astrum. They subsequently ignored their offer, claiming they hadn't received it, and withdrew from the negotiations without much reason.

That was kinda my recollection, too. Or pretty close, anyway.

HD: We will offer peace. The terms are A, B, C, and D.
Morek: Sounds good to us.
Astrum: We will go along with A, B, and C. But we would like to modify D so it is like this.
HD: Gah! You obviously don't want peace! We withdraw from these negotiations!
D'Hara: Awww, come one guys! The Lurians are the real enemies. Can't we all just come back to the table and talk?
Crickets: Chirp! Chirp!

[Indirik]

I really disagree here. The only option they didn't have was to attack Luria (which, even that, I think was time-limited because I hate diplomatic limitations in treaties). Luria's reaction to anything else would've been significantly muted.

Attack Luria, and then get their ass kicked again? Somehow, I doubt that was tops on their list of thing to do.

What could Madina or Fissoa done in their local vicinity? All are ideas I know was expressed to various characters of theirs at certain points (yes, even the anti-lurian ones) via IC discussion. Had a civil war between each other. Invaded D'hara (resentment from their diplomatic fallout). Invaded Swordfell (Swordfell was about to invade Madina a short time prior, even). Assisted Luria against Astrum.

A staged/fake civil war, a boring/ineffectual long-distance war, a suicidal attack on Luria, or join with their former enemies to engage in unjustified attacks on their former allies. A veritable buffet of enviable options.

But no, the players themselves absolutely refused to consider any action. They could have done something; they refused.

When all your choices suck, it's kind of hard to choose between them.

The sequence of events that led to this point was not just Luria's fault. The "everyone against Luria" war kind of sucked. It destroyed the north. Everyone up there was deathly bored, only a few people ever participated, and things had decayed to the point where all it took to shatter it was a few pointed questions, and a couple people to stand up and say "we're not gonna march down there". The war caused Luria to embark on a campaign to turn the rest of the island into warring city states. The problem is that as soon as it started to actually work, Luria was so huge in comparison to their neighbors that they became an oppressive force for stagnation simply because they existed. They became just like the Astrum/Morek/Corsanctum alliance, CE/Tara/Strombran federation, post-empire Arcaea, and Sirion. Victims of their own success.

Both sides were so entrenched in the war that neither was willing to give up. Luria demanded total victory, negotiated separately with each enemy realm, with crushing terms like dismantling your realm into city-states, providing lands for Lurian colonies, appointing Lurian-approved leaders, allowing Lurian-based religions, etc. The other realms demanded group negotiations and a return to the pre-war conditions, denying Luria any concessions for the fact that the allied realms started the war, and were completely unable to make any real progress. It was a crappy war all around, only a very few people enjoyed it, but NO ONE wanted to do what it would take to stop it. You can't point a finger at any one person/realm and say "It's your fault". It's a collective guilt.

[Indirik]

My (attempted) unbiased review of realms on Dwilight, from south to north.

Madina: Dead. Easy for a group to achieve an internal coup. Borders roguelands.
Fissoa: Slightly less dead than Madina. Seems to have some active players struggling to attract attention, lately. Between largest realm on island (Luria) and Madina. I think there's some narrative-roleplaying types here.
Luria: Largest realm on island, engaged in long-distance war to colonize a foreign land. Long-time ancient rivalry with D'Hara that ebbs and flows. Recent diaspora of its nobles to new realms. Narrative-roleplaying, politicking, religiosity.
D'Hara: Squeezed between roguelands and east Dwilight. Talkative politicking and narrative-roleplaying types here.
Swordfell: Between Luria and the Former Morek Empire, wealthy, long periods of quiet with spikes of activity, been playing at peace and neutrality between larger spheres of influence since foundation. Politicking and religiosity.
Astrum: Theocracy of SA, quiet, but becoming more invigorated with defending their realm from Luria and Helyg Derwyddon. Religiosity. Close war.
Helyg Derwyddon: Close war on their border, somewhat involved in colonizing Astrum with Luria (some westerners reside in HD). Religiosity (probably least of all the realms I tagged with this).
Morek Empire: The remnants from all the secessions. Been troubled and changing rulers and foreign policy between two 'larger' sides on Dwilight. Few players, but a very active portion of those players, so can be quickly talkative place. Easy for a group to achieve internal coup. Religiosity.
Antiqualia: Close war on border with Arnor, but lack of ability to really do much atm (limited recruits and other resources). Enough players might change that akin to DSS on EC.
Arnor: Trying to bring AQ to peace via war. Seeking to hold itself independent without foreign influence in the north. Expects much war ahead.

Edit: Realize I forgot to mention above that Astrum and Arnor border roguelands as well.

FWIW - I agree with just about all of this. The exception is that Morek is really not religious any more. One of our nobles is an elder of SA, but none of the rest really care.

[Ossan]

I don't think most players really care about religion, and I completely agree with Indirik.

[Vita`]

They became just like the Astrum/Morek/Corsanctum alliance, CE/Tara/Strombran federation, post-empire Arcaea, and Sirion. Victims of their own success.

Yes, in terms of effective war making long-distance, they are victims of their own success. They difference, I think is that Luria knew this going in to a large part and their policies have in many ways planned for it and to discourage anyone suffering it again via city-states with closer refit wars.

Rather than establish themselves in complete control of the island with a few, powerful realms as all the other imperial instances you listed did, they purposely made many, smaller realms. It's much much harder to keep a large number of smaller realms with more people involved in each government in line with an alliance policy than it is to keep a few realms with a small number of leaders in line. The difference I see between Luria and your examples is hard/soft power. Luria's expansion is more cultural, based on guilds and personal relationships, and less about direct control of realm diplomacies and militaries. Those other instances have strong mechanic relations with other realms, limiting game diplomacy. They have military cooperation channels between their member realms (luria does not).

Both sides were so entrenched in the war that neither was willing to give up. Luria demanded total victory, negotiated separately with each enemy realm, with crushing terms like dismantling your realm into city-states, providing lands for Lurian colonies, appointing Lurian-approved leaders, allowing Lurian-based religions, etc. The other realms demanded group negotiations and a return to the pre-war conditions, denying Luria any concessions for the fact that the allied realms started the war, and were completely unable to make any real progress. It was a crappy war all around, only a very few people enjoyed it, but NO ONE wanted to do what it would take to stop it. You can't point a finger at any one person/realm and say "It's your fault". It's a collective guilt.

Yes, both sides contributed to the war not being resolved. That really wasn't what I was replying to, but what happened to those realms after the war was over. Yes, there were difficult choices. But were they really all worse than doing *nothing* and losing players?

[Indirik]

Yes, in terms of effective war making long-distance, they are victims of their own success. They difference, I think is that Luria knew this going in to a large part and their policies have in many ways planned for it and to discourage anyone suffering it again via city-states with closer refit wars.

Rather than establish themselves in complete control of the island with a few, powerful realms as all the other imperial instances you listed did, they purposely made many, smaller realms. It's much much harder to keep a large number of smaller realms with more people involved in each government in line with an alliance policy than it is to keep a few realms with a small number of leaders in line. The difference I see between Luria and your examples is hard/soft power. Luria's expansion is more cultural, based on guilds and personal relationships, and less about direct control of realm diplomacies and militaries.

Yeah, I'm not seeing that. At all.

Luria ruled by very hard power: A huge-ass army, lots of players, and the ability to beat down anyone on an individual basis.

Although your overall city-states plan is a good one in theory, it's the establishment process that sucks. If it were a matter of waving a wand and the entire island were transformed overnight, that would be great. But it's not. It's a long process that drags on for years. And of necessity, you force your neighbors into it first. And you hold onto your own power until last, to make sure that you have the power to enforce the change. That means that everyone near you has a super long wait for that golden age to appear, during which time they really can't do anything. They're locked into waiting. And they die.

That's exactly what happened on FEI while Arcaea marched to establish the empire. All the realms behind them slowly fell to pieces and dried up, waiting for the empire to finally get done. We all knew that if any of us stepped out of line, we'd get torn apart by everyone else. So we all sat and did nothing. By the time the empire was done, the island was dead.

[Vita`]

Luria ruled by very hard power: A huge-ass army, lots of players, and the ability to beat down anyone on an individual basis.

Fair enough, military power is necessary for any projection of force, yes. I still hold that their method of what they do with what is conquered is vastly different than the groups compared to.

Although your overall city-states plan is a good one in theory, it's the establishment process that sucks. If it were a matter of waving a wand and the entire island were transformed overnight, that would be great. But it's not. It's a long process that drags on for years. And of necessity, you force your neighbors into it first. And you hold onto your own power until last, to make sure that you have the power to enforce the change. That means that everyone near you has a super long wait for that golden age to appear, during which time they really can't do anything. They're locked into waiting. And they die.

That's exactly what happened on FEI while Arcaea marched to establish the empire. All the realms behind them slowly fell to pieces and dried up, waiting for the empire to finally get done. We all knew that if any of us stepped out of line, we'd get torn apart by everyone else. So we all sat and did nothing. By the time the empire was done, the island was dead.

Except this is what is uncomparable to Luria. Luria did not say 'do not attack one another' at any point, to any realm defeated or friendly to it. In fact, repeatedly, it has said *attack* one another (another, not excluding lurian-friendly realms and that made clear on at least one occasion) to realms its discussing peace with. It has not had alliances and federations limiting realm diplomacy across the island. It's friends have been allied to realms at war with other of its friends. Other semi-friendly forces are allying with a not-so-friendly realm against a much more-friendly realm. It is not, nor accelerating towards, anything like the other continent's alliance and federation blocks. Luria was not marching to conquer lands to bring them in line with an imperial concept as Arcaea was doing. It did not try to tell realms to not war another under thread of war by all other parties. Luria has been saying 'break into smaller realms and war people closer to you'. Over and over and over. I even got flack from Westfold players who got spooked that our enemies would all break up and they couldn't form Westfold. The most successful lurian international guilds? An advy guild where all nobles share the elder rank equally regardless of realm and a religion that encourages faithful to war one another as a holy thing. Hardly tools of imperial domination like the FEI Phoenix Empire, AT League of the Eagle, or other such groups.

Again, the realms (Madina and Fissoa) *chose* to do nothing. I'm not saying they had a buffet of wonderful choices, but they had more choices than to *do nothing*.

[Ossan]

The most successful lurian international guilds? An advy guild where all nobles share the elder rank equally regardless of realm and a religion that encourages faithful to war one another as a holy thing.

And one I've heard many complaints about some Nobles treating the advies far too nicely and equally in. Though how widespread that is (especially since I am sure many messages are sent privately and stuff can change) I have no idea.

[Vita`]

Yes, some members hold those opinions. Others hold more respectable opinions. It's wide enough that yes, not everyone agrees.

I think currently it stretches through Fissoa, Luria, Swordfell, Helyg, and AQ.

[EstionTarcyn]

I would agree with Indirik that while the idea of many warring city states is good in theory, we must also remember that these realms made city states tend to die. Neither Fissoa nor Madina has the nobles to fight anyone. They have 5 and 6 nobles I believe, they can barely fight anywhere due to how few they are. I think while these city states are possibly a decent idea on paper, I do not think it works, least of all when 6 nobles would be banged by just a militia gank that most realms can do, for it to work efficiently they need more nobles, else it is pointless. Not to mention, by subduing everyone you will lose players to being demoralized and broken. A lot of people wouldn't want to play unless they saw they had a chance to grow again.

Not to mention you have written the treaty where Fissoa and Madina cannot rejoin each other, do they know this does not count for conquest or does it? If one were to subdue one another?

A conqueror's bane is that when there is no one else to conquer, they can only conquer themselves. D'Hara and Lurian are stood practically on two sides of a stream, poking each other with sticks occasionally, hardly a war at this point as it is disagreeing neighbours