Author Topic: Infiltrators  (Read 41607 times)

GoldPanda

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 561
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #45: June 15, 2011, 12:01:06 AM »
We're trying to add to the game here, not take away.

That's fine with me. My impression is that infiltrators are expensive glass cannons that take a long time to make, and people are trying to get around the "expensive" part as well as the "long time" part.

If you add low-risk, low reward options for infiltrators, then it would need to increase your skills slower than at the academy. Otherwise nobody would use the academy. (Or you can have a skill cap as you suggested.) I don't think that would address the complaint though. The complaint seems to be that the whole process is taking too long, in addition to being too risky.

Quote
Is the infiltrator class really ok as is, where it takes months of boring training to get anywhere(or in my case, not get anywhere)? Is there any way to make it less disappointing? Are even the simplest actions too high risk, thus preventing people from actually gaining their skills by doing things instead of training at the academy?

I cannot think of an alternative that would be fair to the other classes. Again, infiltrators can force me to skip my turn. That better come with some significant risk. And with the new wound system, a single successful attack can disable a noble for days.
------
qui audet vincit

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #46: June 15, 2011, 12:30:39 AM »
That's fine with me. My impression is that infiltrators are expensive glass cannons that take a long time to make, and people are trying to get around the "expensive" part as well as the "long time" part.

If you add low-risk, low reward options for infiltrators, then it would need to increase your skills slower than at the academy. Otherwise nobody would use the academy. (Or you can have a skill cap as you suggested.) I don't think that would address the complaint though. The complaint seems to be that the whole process is taking too long, in addition to being too risky.

Less required training time, less gold investment, less risk and lower damage outputs. Therefore, we cut on the long and boring process of how long it takes before an infil can actually do something without being certain of being captured, all while reducing the damage he can do to keep everything balanced.

I'd also favour changing the subclass name to "saboteur". Infiltrator suggests more ninja-like action with big booms and everything. But really, what we've been gearing towards for some time now is more towards plausible deniability, which sits in much better with small acts of sabotage than with huge missions of extreme havoc.

I cannot think of an alternative that would be fair to the other classes. Again, infiltrators can force me to skip my turn. That better come with some significant risk. And with the new wound system, a single successful attack can disable a noble for days.

Or, more often than not, your wound will do nothing but cause you to lose 2 hours or so from your time pool as you insta-heal at turn change... Tweaks to make it easier in regions without militia/allied troops and much harder in regions with a lot of both would make it both realistic and a more balanced, though, in a context where training times are cut.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #47: June 15, 2011, 03:20:43 AM »
Or, more often than not, your wound will do nothing but cause you to lose 2 hours or so from your time pool as you insta-heal at turn change... Tweaks to make it easier in regions without militia/allied troops and much harder in regions with a lot of both would make it both realistic and a more balanced, though, in a context where training times are cut.

My experience is that it already is easier to stab someone when their are less militia and allied troops. Your own realms troops may or may not help you in your mission, I'm not quite decided yet. Having troops that are allied with you own realm in the region, appear to actually make it harder to complete a mission, which can be annoying. From my last 5 stabbing attempts, I think only 1 guy instant healed.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #48: June 15, 2011, 03:32:41 AM »
My experience is that it already is easier to stab someone when their are less militia and allied troops. Your own realms troops may or may not help you in your mission, I'm not quite decided yet. Having troops that are allied with you own realm in the region, appear to actually make it harder to complete a mission, which can be annoying. From my last 5 stabbing attempts, I think only 1 guy instant healed.

My hunches is that it does matter, regardless of realm of affiliation (probably for coding and balance issues I guess).

Infiltrators could also become to demolition tools what traders are to caravans...
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #49: June 15, 2011, 03:41:20 AM »
My hunches is that it does matter, regardless of realm of affiliation (probably for coding and balance issues I guess).

Infiltrators could also become to demolition tools what traders are to caravans...

I am looking to test this soon, since the infiltrator ability to damage RC's has never been implemented so far as I know. Interestingly we have always been able to target workshops.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #50: June 15, 2011, 04:18:35 AM »
I am looking to test this soon, since the infiltrator ability to damage RC's has never been implemented so far as I know. Interestingly we have always been able to target workshops.

I implemented that over a year ago now.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

songqu88@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #51: June 15, 2011, 04:19:36 AM »
It has been implemented. A few months ago Iksandros destroyed a Cthonian RC.

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #52: June 15, 2011, 04:33:37 AM »
It has been implemented. A few months ago Iksandros destroyed a Cthonian RC.

Snap, now it is time for the Arcaean infiltrator army to get moving, assuming we do not lose too many more to executions.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

songqu88@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #53: June 15, 2011, 04:37:51 AM »
Yeah...mind you it's really risky. And by really risky I mean my guy got critically wounded for 2 days.

But as well, I chose the max risk setting.

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #54: June 15, 2011, 04:41:19 AM »
Yeah...mind you it's really risky. And by really risky I mean my guy got critically wounded for 2 days.

But as well, I chose the max risk setting.

Wounded is better then captured, much much better given the feelings about Arcaean infils right now.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

songqu88@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #55: June 15, 2011, 04:42:37 AM »
No, I still got captured too.

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #56: June 15, 2011, 04:47:31 AM »
No, I still got captured too.

Now that really sucks, I hear the health care in prisons is not up to standard. Oh well I've gotten to the point where I don't get full hours every turn anyway, probably time for this old infiltrator to die.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

songqu88@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #57: June 15, 2011, 04:51:56 AM »
Old infiltrators aren't so bad. In fact, I think that infiltrator is the one class that is affected least by aging in terms of hours. Sure, the skill decay is bad, but as far as time goes, it's not a big deal. If you're smart you'll do only one high risk option when there is no guard activity in a region, such as assaulting a high priority target, or doing the high risk burning. Then you get out of there. An old infiltrator can still function with the one hit then leave. I think the longest any infiltrator action takes is 4 hours, so as far as we know, all characters can manage that.

De-Legro

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 3838
    • View Profile
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #58: June 15, 2011, 04:55:13 AM »
Old infiltrators aren't so bad. In fact, I think that infiltrator is the one class that is affected least by aging in terms of hours. Sure, the skill decay is bad, but as far as time goes, it's not a big deal. If you're smart you'll do only one high risk option when there is no guard activity in a region, such as assaulting a high priority target, or doing the high risk burning. Then you get out of there. An old infiltrator can still function with the one hit then leave. I think the longest any infiltrator action takes is 4 hours, so as far as we know, all characters can manage that.

The issue is when doing that action and trying to leave the region leaves you with a 2 turn move to arrive, which potentially allows the enemy to be waiting for you. A deal breaker? course not, but certainly adds to the things I need to worry about. By the way several infiltrator actions take me 5-6 hours. Pretty sure that playing with the road signs was 6 hours, since I was left with 1 hour after doing the action.
Previously of the De-Legro Family
Now of representation unknown.

songqu88@gmail.com

  • Guest
Re: Infiltrators
« Reply #59: June 15, 2011, 07:47:29 AM »
Ah, right, travel does take 5 hours. Sabotage production takes 7. Yeah...Well, I don't use those options anyway, so that's why I forgot.

Generally, if you have no unit and high infiltration skill, you can still make it without getting captured into an enemy region, unless the enemy has a really large number camped there. In that case, either wait until your army goes in to cause a distraction (remember, this IS a team-based game) or pick better locations. As people have said before, the infiltrator game, at least after the initial screening, is a very mental game. Skill of the player is very important, and while exact risk cannot be calculated due to seemingly large variations in risk probabilities, skilled players can somewhat mitigate that risk by taking balanced actions in the correct regions.

Basically, find good positions.