Infiltrators

[Bedwyr]

Can you avoid death as an infil by simply never going into a realm you're banned from? Or emigrating whenever you have too many bans on you and coming back a couple of weeks later?

No to the first.  You can still get caught and executed if you try to assassinate a noble in an invading army, as a for instance.

Emigrating is indeed possible.  I know of a few infil-heavy families that just trade continents every so often.  Plays hell with your H/P, though, and if you go too low you hit outlaw status and can be executed without a ban.

[Nosferatus]

Concerning how prisons work I think there isn't much wrong with how things work now.
But perhaps it should be possible to ban anyone ending up in your prison.
If someone breaks your law repeatedly and its in your realms culture considered a serious crime, you should be able to execute him.

On infils i think it certainly is fun to put a sort of newbie layer  into this class or perhaps even the others where you have the option to do these low risk low effect missions to learn the tricks while playing the game instead of siting in a city for months hiting the same button.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

No to the first.  You can still get caught and executed if you try to assassinate a noble in an invading army, as a for instance.

Emigrating is indeed possible.  I know of a few infil-heavy families that just trade continents every so often.  Plays hell with your H/P, though, and if you go too low you hit outlaw status and can be executed without a ban.

Actually...Emigrating when you have 0 honour increases your H, above the point of outlaw status. Case in point: Iksandros with 0 H emigrated to Colonies from FEI. Gained 6 H upon arrival.

[Indirik]

If someone breaks your law repeatedly and its in your realms culture considered a serious crime, you should be able to execute him.

You already can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for committing a crime.

[egamma]

You already can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for committing a crime.

Correction: you can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for doing something the game considers to be a crime. If someone ends up in prison for attacking your military forces, you can't ban them, can you? Even though Keplerstan has passed a law that says that attacking Keplerstan is a crime punishable by death?

[Indirik]

Correction: you can ban anyone who ends up in your prison for doing something the game considers to be a crime. If someone ends up in prison for attacking your military forces, you can't ban them, can you? Even though Keplerstan has passed a law that says that attacking Keplerstan is a crime punishable by death?

Well, yes. But that's a game play restriction to keep the game from being Not Fun.

[Chenier]

I've rarely found that the impact of a single infiltrator lives up to the hype.

You haven't seen enough good infils, then.

Hell, I've had infils who were pretty lousy by mosts' standards and still blew away hundreds of bushels of food a day. Get caught? Meh, attack another realm. No more realms left to attack? Move to another continent, resume.

[Indirik]

An infiltrator who intends do have a meaningful impact needs to do more than just deal lots of damage. You need to do the right damage, at the right time, to the right people. When you get it right, a single knife thrust can do more damage to a realm than burning every bushel of food in it.

Just ask Ohnar West.

[Chenier]

An infiltrator who intends do have a meaningful impact needs to do more than just deal lots of damage. You need to do the right damage, at the right time, to the right people. When you get it right, a single knife thrust can do more damage to a realm than burning every bushel of food in it.

Just ask Ohnar West.

Meh, Ohnar West still has 4 duchies, so I consider they are doing pretty good. Whatever was done to them obviously wasn't meaningful enough to send them spiraling down.

Burning food is quite another story. If you have an army looting the food stocks, and then you send a few infiltrators after those regions where they are hiding all the rest of the food from your troops, you can effectively deal the crippling blow to a realm that might have otherwise had enough reserves to last quite a while.

Assaults are not an infil's best option. It's risky, it's success rate is low, and it's use limited to very exceptional scenarios. Sabotage is much stronger.

[Indirik]

Meh, Ohnar West still has 4 duchies, so I consider they are doing pretty good.

That's because you don't play on FEI.

[vonGenf]

That's because you don't play on FEI.

Considering, Ohnar West could be a lot worse off than where it is.

[Velax]

It could? It's had three regions go rogue in the last week or so - making four total - isolating one of its cities from the rest of the realm. It has an on-paper military the second-largest (at times) on the island yet can't hold off one of the weakest realms thanks to a group of nobles who sympathise with the enemy while that enemy burns their realm to the ground around their ears. At the same time, the realm refuses to accept a peace treaty with that enemy realm while also refusing to put together a force large enough to defeat it, despite being easily capable of doing so. That seems a pretty bad situation to me.

[Indirik]

Yes, OW is in a very bad spot. I'm surprised it has survived this long.

[feyeleanor]

Well...What about forgetting about "damage" for some of these low-end options?  What about better scouts? 

Just some examples:

"You sneak into the tent while the Marshal is out, and discover that he has Infantry Charge and Fortification Defense orders issued to his command staff"
"You observe the maneuvers of Sir Rhennthyl's troop and determine that his soldiers are marching in a box, keeping to the front, and appear braced to fight to the end"
"Carefully watching, you see that the enemy has around twenty banners, five siege engines, five caravans, and thirty healers"
"You listen in on the work of the civil servants, and discover that Lantzas is subject to a fourteen percent tax rate, has more than sufficient estates supporting authority, not quite enough supporting production, has around fifty bushels of food in its granaries, has around a hundred gold in its tax offices, and fifty troops in its recruitment centers"

That is stuff that can be low risk, and perhaps most importantly is not a ban worthy offense.  So you can train up on information gathering, and even if you get caught, they can't ban you for asking a few questions (yes, I'm aware that in the real world you could, but for game purposes this seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't be bannable).

I play my infiltrators as spies more than assassins/saboteurs so I really like this idea.

A few other options I think might add to the game without interfering with balance:

1. expands normal scout reports with the economic info usually given to Traders;
2. spread rumours (damage to honour and/or prestige of specific characters, or reduce region control/morale);
3. cheat in duels (boost based on subterfuge skill with risk of imprisonment/ban);
4. bribe troops (undermining their morale and/or cohesion, costs gold, risk of imprisonment);
5. sabotage troops (causing equipment damage or assassinating captains);
6. steal from army/guild/religion treasuries and assassinate temple guards (risk of imprisonment);
7. determine membership of guilds/religions/armies;
8. incite banditry (undermine realm region control and food/commodity production, costs gold);
9. can recruit the same way a hero does (but costs gold);
A. change chance of success for infil actions when commanding a unit.

These would all be much more in keeping with the idea of infiltrators as spymasters and mos

I can also see potential for a new "irregulars" unit mode (possibly mandatory for infiltrators, like police for diplomats) which might include some or all of the following features:

a. improves chances of evading combat;
b. boosts travel speed;
c. always counts as dug in when stationary;
d. greatly improved melee in skirmish formation;
e. reduced melee in line/box/wedge formations;
f. defensive CS boost in battle based on region terrain;
g. improved mobility and fewer casualties when retreating;
h. boost to morale/cohesion for looting and battlefield foraging;
i. reduced honour from battles but higher prestige;
j. lower chance of the character being captured.

Aside from giving infiltrators a distinct battlefield role irregulars would open up interesting new tactical possibilities, especially with advanced battlefield deployments such as Delay & Wound.

[Indirik]

One more I just thought of:

* Find out the details of treaties that another realm has signed. Available in the other realm's capital only? Or maybe any city/stronghold? Anyone can see the text of treaties in their own realm, so it's not like this is "sooper sekrit" information. It's at least semi-public.