Infiltrators

[De-Legro]

Ah, right, travel does take 5 hours. Sabotage production takes 7. Yeah...Well, I don't use those options anyway, so that's why I forgot.

Generally, if you have no unit and high infiltration skill, you can still make it without getting captured into an enemy region, unless the enemy has a really large number camped there. In that case, either wait until your army goes in to cause a distraction (remember, this IS a team-based game) or pick better locations. As people have said before, the infiltrator game, at least after the initial screening, is a very mental game. Skill of the player is very important, and while exact risk cannot be calculated due to seemingly large variations in risk probabilities, skilled players can somewhat mitigate that risk by taking balanced actions in the correct regions.

Basically, find good positions.

The problem there is picking good locations requires scouting, which further chews into my hours. My standard tactic is to attack the enemy far behind the front lines. Great for encountering relatively few enemy nobles, terrible when you need help to escape.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

You know people can't track you if you have no unit, and they can't capture you once you've begun movement. (I think the latter is true at least. I've never been captured in transit, while my status was still "Traveling")

Besides, older infiltrators must be patient. Patience is the greatest weapon in the arsenal of any infiltrator, and the older ones should definitely be expected to have it honed to a fine degree.

[De-Legro]

Of course they can track you without a unit, you show up as a "Noble Without Unit" on both scout reports and region information. The risk is less being captured while moving, and more being captured when you arrive.

[songqu88@gmail.com]

No, I mean, contrary to a guy with a unit, you can't tell where the unitless noble's destination would be. Sometimes, it's very predictable. Don't be predictable, unless you really can't help it.

[De-Legro]

No, I mean, contrary to a guy with a unit, you can't tell where the unitless noble's destination would be. Sometimes, it's very predictable. Don't be predictable, unless you really can't help it.

Indeed, which is generally why when I'm active the enemy try to move into every region I can reach. This is also where the two turn move problem comes into play, cause they can see me in the new region on the same turn as I am arriving. Course they have to have someone close by to make use of it, but it has certainly happened before. When your realm is constantly besieged by 4-5 Arcaean infiltrators you tend to start looking at ways to limit them.

[GoldPanda]

Or, more often than not, your wound will do nothing but cause you to lose 2 hours or so from your time pool as you insta-heal at turn change... Tweaks to make it easier in regions without militia/allied troops and much harder in regions with a lot of both would make it both realistic and a more balanced, though, in a context where training times are cut.

Maybe you should invest in better infiltrators. When one of my realm-mates get stabbed by an enemy infiltrator, it's usually a serious wound or worse. I think I've ever only seen one instant-heal since the new wound system was implemented. Normally the victim is out of action for about one to three days, even for young nobles who are supposed to heal quickly. If it was anything, it was a major buff for infiltrators.

Sounds like you guys want another class. One that has less risk, less training time, and less damage output to compensate.

Basically you want "infiltrators for dummies".

[GoldPanda]

Indeed, which is generally why when I'm active the enemy try to move into every region I can reach. This is also where the two turn move problem comes into play, cause they can see me in the new region on the same turn as I am arriving. Course they have to have someone close by to make use of it, but it has certainly happened before. When your realm is constantly besieged by 4-5 Arcaean infiltrators you tend to start looking at ways to limit them.

If the enemy has to task three or four active knights with nothing but hunting you down, I would say you are more than pulling your fair weight for your realm.

It's all about player skill. If you know what you're doing, you can seriously hamper an enemy realm. If you don't know what you're doing, the most damage you can do is making the enemy Judge burn some honor/prestige points.

[Anaris]

Sounds like you guys want another class. One that has less risk, less training time, and less damage output to compensate.

Basically you want "infiltrators for dummies".

Well, really, what is desired is a way to simply increase the range of risk, training time, and damage output on the lower end.

[Chenier]

Maybe you should invest in better infiltrators. When one of my realm-mates get stabbed by an enemy infiltrator, it's usually a serious wound or worse. I think I've ever only seen one instant-heal since the new wound system was implemented. Normally the victim is out of action for about one to three days, even for young nobles who are supposed to heal quickly. If it was anything, it was a major buff for infiltrators.

Sounds like you guys want another class. One that has less risk, less training time, and less damage output to compensate.

Basically you want "infiltrators for dummies".

Personally, honestly, yes. Grandfather the current infils into staying as such, but don't make the class available anymore for switches. Create a new saboteur class with a bunch of low-risk options that require less training, and fine-tune into it being more of a "demolition expert" than a ninja.

[Bedwyr]

Well, really, what is desired is a way to simply increase the range of risk, training time, and damage output on the lower end.

Well...What about forgetting about "damage" for some of these low-end options?  What about better scouts? 

Just some examples:

"You sneak into the tent while the Marshal is out, and discover that he has Infantry Charge and Fortification Defense orders issued to his command staff"
"You observe the maneuvers of Sir Rhennthyl's troop and determine that his soldiers are marching in a box, keeping to the front, and appear braced to fight to the end"
"Carefully watching, you see that the enemy has around twenty banners, five siege engines, five caravans, and thirty healers"
"You listen in on the work of the civil servants, and discover that Lantzas is subject to a fourteen percent tax rate, has more than sufficient estates supporting authority, not quite enough supporting production, has around fifty bushels of food in its granaries, has around a hundred gold in its tax offices, and fifty troops in its recruitment centers"

That is stuff that can be low risk, and perhaps most importantly is not a ban worthy offense.  So you can train up on information gathering, and even if you get caught, they can't ban you for asking a few questions (yes, I'm aware that in the real world you could, but for game purposes this seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't be bannable).

[Perth]

Well...What about forgetting about "damage" for some of these low-end options?  What about better scouts? 

Just some examples:

"You sneak into the tent while the Marshal is out, and discover that he has Infantry Charge and Fortification Defense orders issued to his command staff"
"You observe the maneuvers of Sir Rhennthyl's troop and determine that his soldiers are marching in a box, keeping to the front, and appear braced to fight to the end"
"Carefully watching, you see that the enemy has around twenty banners, five siege engines, five caravans, and thirty healers"
"You listen in on the work of the civil servants, and discover that Lantzas is subject to a fourteen percent tax rate, has more than sufficient estates supporting authority, not quite enough supporting production, has around fifty bushels of food in its granaries, has around a hundred gold in its tax offices, and fifty troops in its recruitment centers"

That is stuff that can be low risk, and perhaps most importantly is not a ban worthy offense.  So you can train up on information gathering, and even if you get caught, they can't ban you for asking a few questions (yes, I'm aware that in the real world you could, but for game purposes this seems like the kind of thing that wouldn't be bannable).

I haven't read this entire thread, but this kind of thing sounds like a really cool/good/fun idea.

It would also help tie infiltrators into the realm at large a little more as well, instead of being virtual outcasts who everyone sometimes forgets exists until the Judge is having to explain away some failed assassination attempt.

Useful, but not overpowered information that helps out the realm and gives the infiltrator a sense of helping out and accomplishment in a way that is low-risk and also trains their skills. I like.

[De-Legro]

I haven't read this entire thread, but this kind of thing sounds like a really cool/good/fun idea.

It would also help tie infiltrators into the realm at large a little more as well, instead of being virtual outcasts who everyone sometimes forgets exists until the Judge is having to explain away some failed assassination attempt.

Useful, but not overpowered information that helps out the realm and gives the infiltrator a sense of helping out and accomplishment in a way that is low-risk and also trains their skills. I like.

Playing with road signs is something like this. I have managed to delay enough troops to make what would have been close battles, or battles where we were slightly outnumbers battles that actually favoured us. Most of our other skills are still of great benefit, but less directly linked to the armies. Massive production losses from a co-ordinates group of infiltrators can really slow down a war machine for example.

[GoldPanda]

I'm fine with lower risk training options, but they have to train slower than academies, or stop giving you skill training after you hit some low skill cap.

Otherwise no infiltrator would ever spend money on academies, which is supposed to be the fastest way to train skills for most nobles.

[LilWolf]

I'm fine with lower risk training options, but they have to train slower than academies, or stop giving you skill training after you hit some low skill cap.

Otherwise no infiltrator would ever spend money on academies, which is supposed to be the fastest way to train skills for most nobles.

Why is not spending money on academy a bad thing? Not like it's some exceptionally fun activity. They were a stop cap feature introduced because infiltrator skill increase against friendly realms was scrapped.

Besides, if they ever want to ensure their stabbings are more successful they will need to train their sword fighting skill anyway.

[Indirik]

I'm fine with lower risk training options, but they have to train slower than academies, or stop giving you skill training after you hit some low skill cap.

One of the ideas I proposed was exactly that. Low risk/low reward missions would be just that: Low reward. And experience gain is one of those rewards. If the mission you are taking on is too easy, you get no experience from it. You can only improve by doing progressively harder and harder things.

Otherwise no infiltrator would ever spend money on academies, which is supposed to be the fastest way to train skills for most nobles.

It still would be faster, and 100% risk-free. Provided you have enough gold to spend.

But even discounting that, what would be so bad about infiltrators not having to spend huge blocks of time at the academy? Is being bored and useless for two or three months viewed as some sort of infiltrator's Rite of Passage, or indoctrination ritual?