'Beluaterranism'

[Perth]

The goal, I believe, wasn't to create a particularly amazing religion, but rather one that seeks to spread everywhere. One can only realistically seek one or the other within the current system, so one has to chose. For a religion with such objectives as Beluaterranism, staying as vanilla as possible would be the best path.

Nothing prevents a vanilla religion from having flavored orders within it, though. Imo, this would be the optimal path to take.

I know what the goal was, and I know that the reality of the BM game is that generic, broad religions are most successful. I was just saying, light-heatedly, that that's boring.

What kills the religion game is how religions are implemented. People just adapt to best use what's available. I've written murals of text to propose changes that would help improve the religion game. People are happy with religions doing fine as hollow shells. Don't blame others if they opt for hollow shells if doing otherwise is just shooting oneself in the foot.

In most all of what I've been around for reading on both the mail discussion list and the forum, I don't think there is anyone that has said vanilla religions are good things for the game. Merely there has been much discussion on over just how to make them more interesting and what new game functions should be created to do that, etc.

[Chenier]

In most all of what I've been around for reading on both the mail discussion list and the forum, I don't think there is anyone that has said vanilla religions are good things for the game. Merely there has been much discussion on over just how to make them more interesting and what new game functions should be created to do that, etc.

Artemesia seems more than content with having bland vanilla religions have an upper hand on well thought-out ones. 

[Indirik]

What kills the religion game is how religions are implemented. People just adapt to best use what's available. I've written murals of text to propose changes that would help improve the religion game. People are happy with religions doing fine as hollow shells. Don't blame others if they opt for hollow shells if doing otherwise is just shooting oneself in the foot.

It's not a game mechanics issue. It's a player issue. Religion can be made important and influential if the players allow it to be that way. Adding mechanics that force religion on people will only piss off players and drive them away. If the players want it, it's there. If they don't, then they don't.

[Chenier]

It's not a game mechanics issue. It's a player issue. Religion can be made important and influential if the players allow it to be that way. Adding mechanics that force religion on people will only piss off players and drive them away. If the players want it, it's there. If they don't, then they don't.

I honestly see religions being much more of a mechanics issue than alliances. Yet big restrictive ideas were being chanted for complicated treaties that wear down while basic extremely simplistic demands for religions were turned down. A paranoia about possibly having alliances creep up in too great a numbers is apparently more determining than an easy observation on how most stable religions have no content whatsoever. And don't go telling me that it's harder to write a short paragraph about whether you believe in an afterlife or not than finding someone to become an ambassador, sending him to another realm, having him negotiate an agreement, have the other realm do the same process, approving said treaties on both sides, proposing them, signing them, and then after all this, maintaining them...

[Geronus]

I honestly see religions being much more of a mechanics issue than alliances. Yet big restrictive ideas were being chanted for complicated treaties that wear down while basic extremely simplistic demands for religions were turned down. A paranoia about possibly having alliances creep up in too great a numbers is apparently more determining than an easy observation on how most stable religions have no content whatsoever. And don't go telling me that it's harder to write a short paragraph about whether you believe in an afterlife or not than finding someone to become an ambassador, sending him to another realm, having him negotiate an agreement, have the other realm do the same process, approving said treaties on both sides, proposing them, signing them, and then after all this, maintaining them...

How is the lack of RP in most religions a mechanics issue? It's a player issue...

[Indirik]

I honestly see religions being much more of a mechanics issue than alliances. Yet big restrictive ideas were being chanted for complicated treaties that wear down while basic extremely simplistic demands for religions were turned down.

Unfortunately this is one area where we'll just have to disagree.

And don't go telling me that it's harder to write a short paragraph about whether you believe in an afterlife or not than finding someone to become an ambassador, sending him to another realm, having him negotiate an agreement, have the other realm do the same process, approving said treaties on both sides, proposing them, signing them, and then after all this, maintaining them...

I wouldn't even dream of saying that, and I never have. I'm on your side on the treaty friction thing. I think the current mechanic is too onerous, and needs adjustment before treaties can be sent live.

[Chenier]

Unfortunately this is one area where we'll just have to disagree.
I wouldn't even dream of saying that, and I never have. I'm on your side on the treaty friction thing. I think the current mechanic is too onerous, and needs adjustment before treaties can be sent live.

I just feel that the current state of religion hampers the game experience more than the current state of alliances. Alliance problems were limited to a few isolated continents, and I personally hate having to live with the consequences of islands too lazy to help themselves. If the alliances lasted so long, it's because a lot of people just didn't care, despite the voiceful discontent. Why should everyone suffer lame mechanics because a bunch of nobles in a continent or two didn't give a !@#$?

Lame religions, on the other hand, are everywhere. And their presence saps the potential of those who care, making it hard to keep on caring. But this ain't seen as being as important, even if religions could be a whole lot better sources of wars than lame friction mechanics.

[Geronus]

I just feel that the current state of religion hampers the game experience more than the current state of alliances. Alliance problems were limited to a few isolated continents, and I personally hate having to live with the consequences of islands too lazy to help themselves. If the alliances lasted so long, it's because a lot of people just didn't care, despite the voiceful discontent. Why should everyone suffer lame mechanics because a bunch of nobles in a continent or two didn't give a !@#$?

Lame religions, on the other hand, are everywhere. And their presence saps the potential of those who care, making it hard to keep on caring. But this ain't seen as being as important, even if religions could be a whole lot better sources of wars than lame friction mechanics.

Yes, but if I recall correctly many of your suggestions have revolved around artificially forcing players to develop religions in more detail than currently. I'm sorry, but RP just isn't something you can force. If players want to take religion seriously and put in the effort to develop deep theologies, they will. If they want their religions to be powerful and influential, they will make them so IG through RP means. You cannot force people to involve themselves that deeply. They can only do that of their own free will.

[Chenier]

Yes, but if I recall correctly many of your suggestions have revolved around artificially forcing players to develop religions in more detail than currently. I'm sorry, but RP just isn't something you can force. If players want to take religion seriously and put in the effort to develop deep theologies, they will. If they want their religions to be powerful and influential, they will make them so IG through RP means. You cannot force people to involve themselves that deeply. They can only do that of their own free will.

My suggestions were to force superficial details, not to write 10 pages of text on theology.

And I'd argue that if people want their alliances, then let them have them.

[Chenier]

So how's Beluaterranism coming along?

[Nosferatus]

pretty well, still working on texts and disusing it with the players who founded another religion.
My character already found the book and is now busy translating it.
Its not yet clear if this book will be integrated by an already existing religion or if it will be integrated into a new one.
I think the later and probably under the name Sanctus Sanguis, as the name of the book.
I also enhanced the saints aspect of the faith to suit more variety and openness to local cultures and differences within the religion, while trying to remain as much of the unity aspect as possible.
Help is still welcome, i'l like to include many more mini stories into the book before it is oficialy integrated in game.
help for logos, icons or artwork is also very welcome.

update: i have finished two new 'books' on the wiki page, one goes in depth about magic, spellmasters, the light, the archons, the dark forces, daimons and such and how the religion beliefs that all exists and works.
Any help or comments are appreciated (Artemesia).

[Chenier]

pretty well, still working on texts and disusing it with the players who founded another religion.
My character already found the book and is now busy translating it.
Its not yet clear if this book will be integrated by an already existing religion or if it will be integrated into a new one.
I think the later and probably under the name Sanctus Sanguis, as the name of the book.
I also enhanced the saints aspect of the faith to suit more variety and openness to local cultures and differences within the religion, while trying to remain as much of the unity aspect as possible.
Help is still welcome, i'l like to include many more mini stories into the book before it is oficialy integrated in game.
help for logos, icons or artwork is also very welcome.

update: i have finished two new 'books' on the wiki page, one goes in depth about magic, spellmasters, the light, the archons, the dark forces, daimons and such and how the religion beliefs that all exists and works.
Any help or comments are appreciated (Artemesia).

I'm preparing something as well that should spice things up a bit. The seeds have been planted, I just need to work on them a bit before they blossom into something meaningful.

[Nosferatus]

I'm preparing something as well that should spice things up a bit. The seeds have been planted, I just need to work on them a bit before they blossom into something meaningful.

please elaborate

[^ban^]

please elaborate

You realize that's a bit like asking where and when someone is throwing your surprise birthday party, right?

[Chenier]

You realize that's a bit like asking where and when someone is throwing your surprise birthday party, right?

Basically.