Author Topic: Netherworld  (Read 13131 times)

Anaris

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #30: March 16, 2016, 05:21:23 PM »
...Or, sometimes, just plain surviving it. The Second Invasion had no plot, no GM-directed units, nothing but vast, incredible, unstoppable numbers of undead swamping the entire continent in a rising tide of destruction.

That said, I've been doing my best to drop some clear hints about what needs to be done (and, perhaps more relevantly in the very-short-term, what won't work). I know that information distribution can be a problem, though.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Medron Pryde

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #31: March 17, 2016, 12:26:38 AM »
The idea of giving people information and then waiting for them to work together to do something is a cool concept.  If it works, it works, if it doesn't it doesn't.  I think we can all accept that.  One missed data point could make a campaign not work.  That is life.  And that is gaming.

That idea is marred when the GMs' first reaction to just that multinational cooperation is the simple erasure of an entire city's fortification, the magical transportation of a major army away from their destination near the rendezvous point, and the ambushing of another army moving to rendezvous with them.  The effect of these actions is the GMs informing the players that weeks of plans and diplomacy and information sharing will not be allowed to affect the invasion.  Any attempts to do so will be dealt with.  The GMs have a plan and the players will not be allowed to change it.

GundamMerc's statement "Beluaterra isn't about "winning" the invasion, it is about surviving it until the point comes where the GMs start giving you tools to fight back , a la the Temples of Light" is actually a perfect summation of that idea.

Either these Invasions are about pushing the players to work together to survive, or they are about the GMs beating the players up until they decide to give whatever players still remain the tools to effectively fight back.  The first is what the Invasion seemed to be at first.  The rogues were multiplying into groups large enough that even entire nations were having trouble fighting them.  The battle of the Shattered Vales was rather amazing to watch from a distance, and if Nothoi had sent more help than we did it might have turned out differently.  Of course we were busy with some rather big rogue bands ourselves.  Just nothing like that superswarm once it started developing.

GundamMerc's idea that this is about the GMs beating the players up until the point they start giving us tools to fight back seems to be more what it is now with the Daimons using portals and such to stop the players from cooperating.  Daimons entering a region and somehow becoming the defenders when fighting the units that have been in control of the region for many turns is one of those things that just looks fishy from the outside.  Teleporting the bulk of an army halfway across the continent when the players try to work together makes players wonder why they bother trying to work together.  Erasing every single fortification of an entire city is a direct strike against the players who have built those walls and depend on them to help defend their cities.

I mean...the Shattered Vales had an amazing story.  Standing against swarms and swarms of undead and monsters until finally being overwhelmed by the swarms.  The current Daimon story line of not allowing the players to work together is much less amazing...

As for the Temples of Light.  I played one of the High Priests who directed a temple of light.  I "erased" hundreds of Daimons with that weapon.  Until the GMs chose to take it away immediately after several of our players had sacrificed their characters in order to power it.  I have long believed as a player that the temples of light were not really a weapon against the Daimons.  They were I think at best a transporter that moved them from place to place.  Also the Temples of Light required blood to operate, which is what the Daimons always use for all their things.  They always practice blood magic of some kind.  But they were the weapon provided by the GMs for us to fight so I used that weapon as much as I could in hopes that it would tip the balance.  But in the end there were always more Daimons that moved in to replace the "destroyed" Daimons.  And the general number of Daimons attacking Creasur just kept increasing.  The more I used the temple, and the more players sacrificed their characters to power the temple, the more Daimons appeared to attack Creasur.  And then the GMs took away the Temple of Light and overwhelmed the city with a force of Daimons larger than anything they had ever had before the Temple of Light showed up.

We were doing exactly what GundamMerc said as we considered that our only option of survival in the end.  Surviving long enough for the GMs to give us a weapon to use against the Daimons.  Using that weapon as much as possible.  Doing blood magic and sacrifices to make it as powerful as possible so it would fire as often as possible.  The combined forces of three massive realms worked together to fight the Daimons with every weapon we had or that the GMs provided us.  The Daimons ground all of those weapons down, and then the GMs removed the Temple of Light so the Daimons could finish us.

So I've always thought the Temple of Light was just a very elegant bait and switch by the GMs to use the players to weaken themselves and strengthen the Daimons.  But as GundamMerc said, it was the weapon the GMs provided us so we used it in hopes that it would help.

Vita

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #32: March 17, 2016, 12:48:43 AM »
That idea is marred when the GMs' first reaction to just that multinational cooperation is the simple erasure of an entire city's fortification, the magical transportation of a major army away from their destination near the rendezvous point, and the ambushing of another army moving to rendezvous with them.  The effect of these actions is the GMs informing the players that weeks of plans and diplomacy and information sharing will not be allowed to affect the invasion.  Any attempts to do so will be dealt with.  The GMs have a plan and the players will not be allowed to change it.

You may have made a few assumptions and jumps to conclusions as to the degrees of pre-planning and happenstance involved in those events. And relation to humanity's actions. Invasions are meant to be tough and yes, the Netherworld is working against humanity, but not everything is a conspiracy.

I think sharing your perspective on the experience of the past invasions is good insight.

Medron Pryde

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #33: March 17, 2016, 01:15:09 AM »
Oh...absolutely.  Assumptions and jumping to conclusions is all part and parcel of that.  I could very well be wrong about some or even all of it.

My statement is what it FEELS like to the players.

JDodger

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #34: March 17, 2016, 06:59:28 AM »
the consequences of recent actions in xinjin will tell us a lot
Why then Selenia should DEFINITELY come to visit? Richer AND Happier you say? That must be seen to be believed.

GundamMerc

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #35: March 17, 2016, 02:48:31 PM »
*snip*

I would also like to point out that the fortification thing happened when a portal was opened there, the army being moved back to Fronepu was also the result of a portal being opened, etc. It's hardly the GM's fault if the nobles fail to police their commoners into using portals responsibly. A running theme with all of humanity's set-backs have been portals, however not all of the portal openings have been to humanity's detriment. One of the openings moved a bunch of monsters from the south to Thalmarkin, who were much more capable of dealing with said threat.

Vamking12

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #36: March 30, 2016, 06:22:14 PM »
One of my dudes got imprisoned an is being sent to the colonies thanks to the netherworld, this is obviously proof the colonies is secretly the netherworld in disguise.

Anaris

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #37: March 30, 2016, 06:24:16 PM »
One of my dudes got imprisoned an is being sent to the colonies thanks to the netherworld, this is obviously proof the colonies is secretly the netherworld in disguise.

Actually, I'll tell you a secret. There's a very good reason he got sent to the Colonies, rather than any other continent:

You've already got nobles on the other continents, so he couldn't be deported there!
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Vamking12

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #38: March 30, 2016, 06:45:58 PM »
Ha least it's better then being sent to Atamara. ;)

Vita

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #39: March 30, 2016, 06:59:21 PM »
Is Atamara now our own Davy Jones' Locker? To the bottom with you!

JeVondair

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #40: April 12, 2016, 06:43:40 PM »
Daemons. Everywhere.
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among people everywhere"

Anaris

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #41: April 12, 2016, 06:50:22 PM »
No...no, I don't think so.  There are definitely Daimons in many places, but I haven't seen a single daemon.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

DeVerci

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #42: April 12, 2016, 09:00:13 PM »
The true daimons are our fellow men  :P

JeVondair

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #43: April 13, 2016, 09:46:27 PM »
No...no, I don't think so.  There are definitely Daimons in many places, but I haven't seen a single daemon.

If this is so, then your character is failing humanity by not joining the fight! SHAME! DISHONOR!
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among people everywhere"

Anaris

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Re: Netherworld
« Reply #44: April 13, 2016, 09:49:07 PM »
If this is so, then your character is failing humanity by not joining the fight! SHAME! DISHONOR!

...Um...you do know I'm one of the GMs, right? ;D
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan