Retention Revisited

[Bluelake]

In conclusion, if I hadn't stumbled onto Terran I would not be playing battle master most likely. We have to maximize the amount of people discovering realms that suit their personality and playing style if we wanna keep potential future battle master players

Bottom line here being: and we can't trust realm descriptions and whatever information we're currently able to provide to be enough to do that. Surveys just might be able to do that, even if they come in the form of multiple choice questions.

I agree. Finding a realm that suits you makes all the difference. Also, realms that aren't interesting will eventually shrink, and will either have to become interesting or will eventually (and slowly) cease to exist. Which will give way to more interesting realms.

Many of us liked WI when it first came out. However, the thing I missed most was teamplay, and how repetetive the games were. If you'd somehow keep track of another ladder with wins, you could scramble all participating players every round.

I miss the in game War Islands specifically because of that: lots of battles all the time, lots of team play, not much politics (but still some), high turnover in positions, several experiments with the army, and everyone could go for world domination without feeling guilty or knowing the result would be boring, because then it would just reset. However, I don't think it's the answer here, and it might just give the wrong impression of what BM is about. Perhaps "newbie realms" instead of "newbie island" would be better.

I think we pinpointed two main problems, then:

1. The ability to choose a realm that will suit you
2. The learning curve

Now to tackle these...?

1.A Mostly, I like the idea of surveys. I wouldn't mind helping develop some 20 questions that might help grading a realm, so we can send randomly 5 of them when the person has spent 100 days in realm (and perhaps again at 500?), and/or when they leave the realm (some restriction here to avoid cloning for grades). This could be converted to a rating of sorts with maybe 3 categories (War, Politics, Atmosphere/Fun), which upon clicking you can see the multiple choice replies and other comments made about the realm. This should probably be moderated to avoid trolls. Do it in a way in which it updates itself: no use having the grades from last year working for the realm of today.
1.A' Or we could go crazy and do a match system! Players answer questions about what they like, players answer questions about the realms they're in or leaving, and every time they look for a new realm they can see match percentages.
1.B I'm not sure this doesn't already happen, but it would be good to let everyone coming to a realm know the rating of mentors within the realm. We already have the mentor points and the questionnaire, so it's probably easier to make that into a "newbie-friendliness"grade

2.A Grade mentors as per 1.B: make it a competition between realms. They might try to do better if this makes a difference in whether new players join them or not.
2.B Consider in-game tutorials? They might be a pain in some games, but they also succeed in showing you where everything is, and they can always be skipped. I wouldn't tie them together in a huge "newbie-welcoming pack" where they'll spend all their hours training their men or recruiting new troops, but make them separate for each type of action, and the first one would take you through message screens (greet your realm, message a mentor), politics, data about yourself and your realm, possibly a hint at the wiki and forums...
2.C We could make a campaign for player-made learning material. Like updating the wiki tutorials (as we had some time ago), getting good mentor classes and giving them some spotlight. (is there a wiki page which gathers player-made tutorials and guides?)

[Chenier]

Perhaps offering a 'lightweight' island would make a difference. The game would be stripped of all complex things. It would flatten the (now very steep) learning curve. I don't think this would result in a newbie island, becaus e I'm sure veteran players could also find a place there.

Basically, why not make a hybrid of BM and WI? The superstructure would be like WI, with attrition, troop production and troop upgrades. And the substructure would consist of players working as a team within one realm. When one realm dominates the map, the island gets reset

Advantages:
*stick true to the 'lightweight game' promise
*a place for new players to learn some aspects of the game, without too much complex things (that don't matter to a newbie anyways)
*no roleplay, thus no english skills needed. Less people on the regular island that simply play for the strategy aspect of the game, and are those silent characters never sending any letter
*a healthy mix of new and old players. For instance, I don't see noobs becoming the leader of one of the factions. If things like income and recruitment are realm-based (so everyone gets the same income), new players can take up a role of importance

Disadvantages:
*new coding(?)
*conservatism

Many of us liked WI when it first came out. However, the thing I missed most was teamplay, and how repetetive the games were. If you'd somehow keep track of another ladder with wins, you could scramble all participating players every round.

Maybe I should not have put this here, but I think what I'm suggesting is highly relevant to the player retention issue, because I see two main problems:
*the game is too complex for newbies
*the game works on a too big timescale. A lot of time and effort is needed to advance, and access the fun parts

I love this idea. Sounds like it would be a very fun place to play.

And don't say colonies is lightweight. It's just slow. Friggin' slow. But not lightweight.

I dare say we truly lost something when the war islands were sunk... They were basically every newbie's paradise, and the last areas in the game where team play still prevailed at the same level that was common in every realm when I first joined this game. Its closing meant the end of an era. Once again punishing changes were made in order to "encourage" behaviors. But really, wars weren't being stopped on other continents on the basis that one could have them on the South-East Continent. Rather, people had a "get-away" island to enjoy all the wars and conflict they wanted while their other realms where in (inevitable) downer periods. Realms that couldn't afford to go to war couldn't afford it any more with the sinking of the war islands.

[Phellan]

And don't say colonies is lightweight. It's just slow. Friggin' slow. But not lightweight.

I dare say we truly lost something when the war islands were sunk... They were basically every newbie's paradise, and the last areas in the game where team play still prevailed at the same level that was common in every realm when I first joined this game. Its closing meant the end of an era. Once again punishing changes were made in order to "encourage" behaviors. But really, wars weren't being stopped on other continents on the basis that one could have them on the South-East Continent. Rather, people had a "get-away" island to enjoy all the wars and conflict they wanted while their other realms where in (inevitable) downer periods. Realms that couldn't afford to go to war couldn't afford it any more with the sinking of the war islands.

QFT

The War Islands were a blast, lots of fun and something happening all the time.   Mostly because war was constant and something always on the go.   Now I spend most of my days. . . holding court.  Doing police work.  And every so often, on really special occassions.   Sometimes we have a war.

[Indirik]

The War Islands were a blast, lots of fun and something happening all the time.   Mostly because war was constant and something always on the go.   Now I spend most of my days. . . holding court.  Doing police work.  And every so often, on really special occassions.   Sometimes we have a war.

Sorry, but I just *have* to say this. And I'm not aiming it at you, Phellan, honest. But I hear so much of these comments lately of "how come there are no wars, we never *do* anything...", usually combined with maudlin sentiments about the war islands.

Way back when, in the Good Old Days, back when there was all that marching around, and constant battles, do you remember what one of the most common complaints was? All that marching around and fighting. "All we ever do is march out, fight a battle, march home, march out, fight a battle, march home, time after time after time...."

Now I admit that the game focus has changed somewhat, from active conflict to maintenance. Definitely not good. We need more incentive for conflict, and more ability to sustain that conflict.

Just, be careful that the glasses you use to look at the past don't have too much of a rosy tint to them.

(Oh, and the war islands won't be coming back, either. Nor any other special-purpose island. Sorry.)

[Bluelake]

QFT

The War Islands were a blast, lots of fun and something happening all the time.   Mostly because war was constant and something always on the go.   Now I spend most of my days. . . holding court.  Doing police work.  And every so often, on really special occassions.   Sometimes we have a war.

For war islands reminiscence, please refer to this topic: http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,739.0.html (also for war islands complaints)

I'm back at the two points I think we can and should deal with:

1. The ability to choose a realm that will suit you
2. The learning curve

Perhaps a third

3. How to be patient with the slow pace of the game.

For the third, what I mean is: you log in the first time, do basic tasks to learn your way around, log out for lack of responses and never login again. Maybe the game could send some e-mail reminders (with a link or checkbox to opt-out, of course) for the first 2-3 days of the game, to remind the player about turns and all. I'd also add something for some time after the person has paused, like a month later (before deletion, of course), asking if they'd like to come back. If the e-mails have nice enough messages and are really only for these two occasions, it won't be too nagging.

[Phellan]

Oh, I don't doubt it

There needs to be a happy-medium though.   And somewhere in here we need to lean back towards warring, because in far too many of my Realms I've seen people leave the Realm, or just flat out quit because it's not exciting enough.  And some of the actual game mechanics are making it damn near impossible to make it fun for people (the other half are people who will fight tooth and nail to maintain their Realm regardless of any IC or reasonable motivation.    Oh, but to do away with some of those stagnant islands and make new, deadly ones with lots of Rogues and potential for something new (oh, we need more Dwilights, but not the same map ).

[Chenier]

Sorry, but I just *have* to say this. And I'm not aiming it at you, Phellan, honest. But I hear so much of these comments lately of "how come there are no wars, we never *do* anything...", usually combined with maudlin sentiments about the war islands.

Way back when, in the Good Old Days, back when there was all that marching around, and constant battles, do you remember what one of the most common complaints was? All that marching around and fighting. "All we ever do is march out, fight a battle, march home, march out, fight a battle, march home, time after time after time...."

Now I admit that the game focus has changed somewhat, from active conflict to maintenance. Definitely not good. We need more incentive for conflict, and more ability to sustain that conflict.

Just, be careful that the glasses you use to look at the past don't have too much of a rosy tint to them.

(Oh, and the war islands won't be coming back, either. Nor any other special-purpose island. Sorry.)

While I remember some people saying that combat could perhaps be made more exciting, and that war alone did not always suffice to create a fun environment, and that wars tended to be over too great distances and there was often more marching than fighting, I never heard anyone say that there was too much fighting.

[vonGenf]

I dare say we truly lost something when the war islands were sunk... They were basically every newbie's paradise, and the last areas in the game where team play still prevailed at the same level that was common in every realm when I first joined this game. Its closing meant the end of an era.

I wasn't around for the War Islands, so I hope people can enlighten me about what made them so special.

I guess I understand why they would be good for newbies, but when I was a newbie, I wouldn't have joined the War Islands because it was clear that these were special. The first island I joined was Atamara because the game went to great lengths to convince that this is the default choice, and that all others were special in their own way and should only be experienced after you learned the game. I am not convinced this is optimal.

As for the "team play paradise", off the top of my head I can see three reasons why that would be the case:

• The lack of food mechanism and control issues (were there even estates?) meant there was no reason at all to hoard anything from your realm-mates. This alleviated suspicion and meant everyone trusted everyone because there really wasn't much to gain otherwise.
• The fact that the realms were pre-defined meant you could never secede or found your own realm. Also, joining the War Islands to switch loyalty seems to defeat the purpose. Therefore everybody joined to play strategically for realm expansion, not for character ambition.
• The possibility of reset meant that it was much less tempting to strive to achieve goals for your characters. The only meaningful goal was for your realm to win the island.

It seems to me you think (1) is the main reason; I would argue (2) and (3) were way more important. Even with control issues, the war islands realms would have been still at war; no one would ever be afraid of losing their Lord's loyalty because the regions were not fed.

[Perth]

I guess I understand why they would be good for newbies, but when I was a newbie, I wouldn't have joined the War Islands because it was clear that these were special. The first island I joined was Atamara because the game went to great lengths to convince that this is the default choice, and that all others were special in their own way and should only be experienced after you learned the game. I am not convinced this is optimal.

This is so true.

My first character was on Atamara as well. The continent selection page basically presents it as Vanilla Battlemaster 101. East Continent is presented as being old and entrenched, as if you need experience and previous knowledge of the island's events to go there. Beluaterra is immigrate only. Dwilight does a good job of remaining attractive; has an open message about open country needing new faces. Far East Island was labeled "Hardcore Roleplaying" for so long "with enforcement" obviously newbies aren't going to jump in there (though, I can't remember what the description is now). And the Colonies, is well, the Colonies.

[roland.walters@abbott.com]

 Maybe the game could send some e-mail reminders (with a link or checkbox to opt-out, of course) for the first 2-3 days of the game, to remind the player about turns and all. I'd also add something for some time after the person has paused, like a month later (before deletion, of course), asking if they'd like to come back. If the e-mails have nice enough messages and are really only for these two occasions, it won't be too nagging.
The first thing I looked for was contacts when I started up.  If, during the first week or so, an e-mail went to the individual when a message was sent to them or activity happened like looting, this could quickly give the new player a better sense of the timeing of what was going on as well as acting as a catalyst to remind them of the game.  Of course this assumes they check their e-mails more often than they check the game.  Perhaps twitter or facebook posts might be better for some.

Roland

[Indirik]

I wasn't around for the War Islands, so I hope people can enlighten me about what made them so special.

No diplomacy, all realms locked at war. (I should say no "official" diplomacy. Realms could still have under the table agreements to not attack each other.)
No buro work, no police work, no civil work. Means no region maintenance. Lords could hold courts.
No food, I think.

The idea was to focus on just warfare.

• The lack of food mechanism and control issues (were there even estates?) meant there was no reason at all to hoard anything from your realm-mates. This alleviated suspicion and meant everyone trusted everyone because there really wasn't much to gain otherwise.
• The fact that the realms were pre-defined meant you could never secede or found your own realm. Also, joining the War Islands to switch loyalty seems to defeat the purpose. Therefore everybody joined to play strategically for realm expansion, not for character ambition.
• The possibility of reset meant that it was much less tempting to strive to achieve goals for your characters. The only meaningful goal was for your realm to win the island.

It seems to me you think (1) is the main reason; I would argue (2) and (3) were way more important. Even with control issues, the war islands realms would have been still at war; no one would ever be afraid of losing their Lord's loyalty because the regions were not fed.

IIRC, it was possible to secede and create realms. Isn't that how Toren was created on both SEI and SWI? Thing is there were only 3 cities and a stronghold. And since three of them were occupied by pre-generated realms, that doesn't leave much room for expansion. :p

I would argue that points 2 and 3 are not really true, either. Personal ambition is always a driving factor. Yes, the realms may all be at war, but *somebody* has to be the king. So why not me? After all, I *know* that I could do a better job than you, right? There were several rebellion in various S*I realms. One of the Toren pages specifically mentions the string of rebellions that crippled the realm.

Back when the war islands were around, I really don't think they were any more of a "team play paradise" than realms on any other island. When people describe the way their war islands realms were run, it sounds to me like they were describing the exact way Perdan was run back in 2006/7, on EC. I've heard that certain other realms on AT were even more team-focused than that.

Edit: fixed my borked quoting...

[JPierreD]

The general sequence I have, and see other players having is joining the game, looking around for stuff to do, getting acquainted to it, and after some time start playing with a little less anxiety. What does this mean? That if a player joins the game and there is nothing more for him to do other than message everyone asking for a Lordship, and possibly traveling somewhere (though he doesn't really know where to travel), he is unlikely going to easily get a feel of the game, nor it will catch much of his attention. If he gets his estate and gets assigned to an army, but fails to get participation in what happens/is decided, or foresee any chance of political rising, then he is not likely going to get very interested.Of course, I am talking about one kind of player, there are several, but I feel this one takes at least a considerable part of those who seek the type of game BattleMaster is included in: political strategy.

I come from eRepublik, a game which had high potential but was torn down into a cheap copy of Farmville and Evony, which has, if nothing else, a great political system and community. I made it a little politic/social lab, and for politic parties and countries ended up diagnosing the same problem as BM: they failed to attract players because these didn't feel like part of something, the community. eRepublik doesn't have the limiting factor that is IC/OoC separation, and the risks involved in crossing it, so some of this ideas might not fully apply, or will have to be changed. In the virtual country of eUruguay we had between 50 to 100 active players (fluctuating population over the years) and as the game didn't offer a good message system we used an outside forum (every virtual country does that) and a IM system, first was MSN, then we migrated to IRC, where most of the countries were.

The most popular and effective tactic countries used for player retention was messaging the newcomers (later the game implemented a custom message the Country President would be able to edit) and inviting them to the Country forum and chat. Such gave players means of communication much more efficient, and the possibility of knowing what is going on around them, allowing them to join ongoing discussions and to fantasize and plan. A game is not very interesting when you don't have a goal, or something to look forward to.

On kingdoms, I would give the same diagnose I gave to political parties: their greatest problem is that they were becoming sects ruled by a tiny amount of people who kept for themselves all the information. And those positions were largely stagnant. Yes, I know this is how a Monarchy or such is supposed to work, but even if the setting is medieval, the players are not, and the nobles kept "being" in those times because they had little choice, unlike the players. Rotation of players is a good form of keeping people interested and making your realm a successful and attractive one. Even handling out ingame-irrelevant positions is quite useful actually  It is a problem when rulers choose old people who might not even be that focused in the game or specific continent, just as a means of keeping power controlled, for they might end up losing the power the new players give them.

A way that both gives newcomers an idea of what is going on, what is being discussed and what he can look forward to, and also helps a lot in the organization of low-rank nobles is the ingame forums system.
My idea, based on a small game, is having different sub-forums available in the game. One sub-forum open to all Nobles (or just Knights) in the realm and above, one for all Lords and above, one for each Guild, one for each Religion. In one of the 3 worlds that small game had, with certainly no more than 200 players, arguably less than 100, there were 41 brotherhoods, and for such, 41 of those small forums. That tends to make me believe such are not a nightmare in terms of data consumption and such related problems.


Example of the forum

The idea would be that you get a button added, or in Information, and you get access to the sub-forums available to you. These, as an initial idea, would be those previously stated (Religon, Guild, Realm-wide, possibly a Duchy-wide one, and one only for Lords and upper). The moderators in the brotherhoods of the game of the pictured were its founder (called Grandmaster, title which could be passed on) and its selected masters. In this case the Guilds and Religions moderators would be easy the Founder and Elders, with the Realm sub-forum for the King and the Duchy for the Duke to moderate.

One could say that this reduces the intrigue possibilities as information tends to get more public, but I assure you that a game with such forums still have lots of intrigues and the likes. It does get more difficult for people to withhold information and such, but it hardly becomes impossible. The benefit of people players ignorant is much less than the player retention of not doing the same.

It can also be argued that it is not medieval at all. I do agree, but it won't be the first non-medieval option in the game, and once again, the improved communication makes up for that.

There best part is that everything can be kept IC, and everything can be roleplayed. I see it as quite a boon for roleplaying, actually. But that is just my personal view.

[vonGenf]

If what you are proposing is to turn the messaging system of guilds into forums, I doubt you'll have more traction. As you say, it is not within the medieval setting, and is not conductive to interactions having a medieval atmosphere.

However, this gives me an idea. One of the problems for new players may be simply that they log in once, see nothing happen, and just forget to log in the next day. What if new characters, when being created, could see all the realm-wide messages that were sent in the last 72 hrs? This way they would see that the game is not empty; and it would give them something to respond to other than the boilerplate introduction message.

[vonGenf]

No buro work, no police work, no civil work. Means no region maintenance. Lords could hold courts.

So could region rebel at all? Or was it that once you TOed a region, it was yours at full stat unless the enemy TOed it back?

I would argue that points 2 and 3 are not really true, either. Personal ambition is always a driving factor. Yes, the realms may all be at war, but *somebody* has to be the king. So why not me? After all, I *know* that I could do a better job than you, right? There were several rebellion in various S*I realms. One of the Toren pages specifically mentions the string of rebellions that crippled the realm.

In that sense, yes. However, no one can win Dwilight; therefore your goal in the game must be self-defined, which gives you a wide liberty to adopt personal goals. On the War Islands, the overarching goal to win the island is always present.

[JPierreD]

That would indeed be a great idea, in my opinion.

Do the Guilds have a mini forum in them, or just three boards for different levels of access that only a few people can modify? I confess I don't fully know their system, but the impression they gave me of it was along that line.