Author Topic: Retention Revisited  (Read 130609 times)

Perth

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #300: August 12, 2011, 09:57:49 AM »
Why would that be? What has Dwilight that makes it more appealing/demanding for players to actively recruit other friends?

Indeed, if anything we should see a spike in EC and Atamaran numbers in from people recruiting friends to fill the voids that are clearly shown in Vellos' data.
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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #301: August 12, 2011, 10:02:53 AM »
If destroyed realms lead to declining active player counts, they are bad for retention. End of story.

I believe this is partially true. But let's not forget that the creation of a new realm upon the ruins of the old realm might undo the initial decline of activity, with most likely other (newer?) players taking up the roles of the previously active players that now left the continent because there is no room for them any longer.

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Across all of BM, numbers of active and very active players are declining, despite strong registration growth. Some continents mimic this pattern. Some do not. We need to figure out WHERE we are losing players. The data indicate it is in Atamara, EC, and the Colonies, mostly.

For a few weeks, if not months, I have been pointing out that the mentor-system is very unrewarding. In Ibladesh (EC), we used to have a sharp increase of new nobles a while ago. I did my utter best to "educate" these nobles to make them stay, because we were in dire need of them. At a certain point we reached 100 nobles, so I figure it basically worked for a few weeks... now we're down to about 70-80 again. That is a massive loss. What I am trying to say is that while being a mentor I found it to be a very altruistic job, where the effort put into teaching new players the game is not properly reward because it is dependent on the new player itself rewarding the old player. This rarely happens in general (or am I just an exception?), and even when it does happen, you need more than one new player to reward you before you can do anything "fun" with it (the options aren't even that amazing). Not to mention that "education" can take up to 60 or even 100 days, and that most players by then already feel they know the game and don't see the need to reward their mentor any more.

I think there are several solutions to this. First would be an overhaul of the entire mentor system to make this type of game-play more competitive (compared to other classes). For starters, the class "mentor" can be removed or can be allowed as a third-class option, so it is no burden on the players who decide they actually want to work on keeping Battlemaster alive. Another option would be "force" new players into having a mentor - and maintaining contact with that mentor. I assume that now about 25% of the new players end up lost without a mentor and get auto-removed after two weeks. Probably 95% of them is just not interested in a text-based game. But that 5% might have become a real BM-player if they were probably guided.

Next to that the rewarding system for mentors still has to change. The battlemaster-community simply doesn't do enough to attract new players. I personally think that our devs (and Tom) are doing wonderful jobs, as well as some other players... but it should be more than that. Everybody should be aware of "retention" and should at least try to help out new players. A friendly and welcoming atmosphere is what keeps players here, even if they are initially not attracted to the type of game. I just recently experienced that myself, as I began playing a game I wasn't really attracted too, but it had a community so welcoming that I just wanted to hang around more.

I am still in favour of a rather small island where new players (only) can join, "guided" by a few experienced players that roam around in the realms (I picture this as the old War Islands) to teach them. Here new players can get used to the game, but also to things such as "being a lord", "being a council member" and many, many more aspects of the game. But I believe these ideas should fit in another thread where we can tackle the problem of a declining player base and the lack of mentor-rewarding goodies in the game itself.

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That would require an explanation of why Dwilight, Beluaterra, and FEI draw in such a vastly higher number of new, active players.

I think these should be separated. I have never been on FEI before, so the only assumption I can make is that people are drawn there because it is an RP-heavy island. I know for myself that one day I will go there just for the RP-possibilities. Now Dwilight is a continent with many "unexplored" regions. Colonizing (read: the chance of making your own realm and write a little core history) is always attracting new players. Beluaterra had this kind of attraction back when it was still called "The New World" and was largely rogue. The fact that there are new realms being formed on Dwilight on a regular basis is what keeps players attracted to that continent. I believe however that, when it gets fully colonized, it will need to find something else to attract characters. But it is large enough to ensure many, many wars.

Beluattera might attract people because it is partially blighted ("This looks cool!") and because it had a mini-game set up around the invasion that created quite the buzz. Such things stimulate players to join these continents. Next to that an all-out war just broke out (with the exception of Melhed). Wars are always good.

Quote
What about destroyed realms could be unappealing? Hm, here's an idea: imagine a continent where one or two massive realms have never been taken down, never been defeated, despite sometimes vast alliances arranged against them. This/these realms are characterized by strong geographic advantages, very stable internal politics, and ruthless hegemony over their neighbors. They repeatedly destroy or dismember any realm near them that challenges their hegemony. They thus create constant drains on retention on their continents.

You just described EC.

My last suggestion is that a questionnaire is held: this would be able to give everyone clear and conclusive data and would allow us to tackle the problem more thoroughly. It is only by asking nearly every players that we can reveal what the "wants" and "dont's" are. The numbers given here by Vellos are very interesting and do show that there are some issues, but numbers rarely explain human behaviour: they only give an indication of it. Only by going out there and asking people how they feel about the game will give clearance.
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Peri

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #302: August 12, 2011, 10:50:21 AM »
I didn't really the post thoroughly so I may have missed the math behind in - in particular whether you are considering only new accounts or number of chars in general. However, speaking of EC, certainly SoA, Sirion and Fontan's large number of nobles are but a far memory. Sirion because there is no more the fun war to fight, SoA and Fontan because they are largely destroyed and have little income. Besides ibby there is no realm in EC locked in a very fun war right now, that can explain why people leave.

As for dwilight, if I go to the statistics - noble count page I can't really see any realm increasing number of nobles, while the average trend is either stable or going down. Are numbers increasing and I can't read the plots or again I'm misinterpreting your data Vellos?

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #303: August 12, 2011, 12:14:44 PM »
Indeed, if anything we should see a spike in EC and Atamaran numbers in from people recruiting friends to fill the voids that are clearly shown in Vellos' data.

I think the types of players who prefer Dwilight are different from the types that like Atamara and EC. Obviously there is a bit of overlap, but I see Dwilight players being newer to the game, more aggressive about creating their own fun, more likely to "march to their own drummer".

I see Atamara and EC as old and tired, and unlikely to bother recruiting a bunch of friends.

Kain

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #304: August 12, 2011, 03:39:38 PM »
I think the types of players who prefer Dwilight are different from the types that like Atamara and EC. Obviously there is a bit of overlap, but I see Dwilight players being newer to the game, more aggressive about creating their own fun, more likely to "march to their own drummer".

I see Atamara and EC as old and tired, and unlikely to bother recruiting a bunch of friends.

I believe every continent attracts different kind of players. Now, since we have many characters, we'll also play on islands which aren't our favorites.

My favorite continent is EC, by far. I've got 2 characters there for a reason. The diplomacy being done in the north impacts the south in a very tangible way, and vice versa. The island is one unit where many moves have ripple effects across the entire island.
Then comes Far East. The same map but even smaller. The reason I like it less than EC is that it has a tendency to be more quiet, and it has a little too few regions.

Dwilight, the one everyone seems to like so much is so far the most boring one for me. Most of the time, it is too hard to even keep the regions the realm owns stable so it becomes beaurocracymaster deluxe over there. The wars are very few considering the size of the continent (due to everyone focusing on region stability before even being able to think of war), and you must marsch a long way to attack someone. The fights you do have are against undead and monsters and I'm one of those who always enjoyed battling against other players way more than monsters. Fighting the monsters is just another way to play beaurocracymaster. You fight them so they'll stop terorizing your regions. It's like a harsh court that you sometimes must chase around the kingdom.. I've only had characters in 2 of the realms of course, but that is my experience.

Then I've discovered more of what seems to be OOC-clan related on Dwilight, which spoils the fun abit. I have no evidence though :/

So basically, EC rocks, Far East is good and the rest sucks ;) Hopefully, my opinion of Dwilight will change with time, and perhaps the new estate update will help. We'll see.
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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #305: August 12, 2011, 03:41:19 PM »
Then I've discovered more of what seems to be OOC-clan related on Dwilight, which spoils the fun abit. I have no evidence though :/

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Vellos

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #306: August 12, 2011, 04:38:20 PM »
I believe this is partially true. But let's not forget that the creation of a new realm upon the ruins of the old realm might undo the initial decline of activity, with most likely other (newer?) players taking up the roles of the previously active players that now left the continent because there is no room for them any longer.

Yes, creating new realms could conceivably be good for retention. But that kind of analysis is not, yet, the point of my investigation. First I'm trying to see IF there are actually continental differences. So far, the answer seems to be "yes." If we then discover that high-retention continents are those with lots of new-realm generation, then that gives us a clue on how we might proceed (of course, it might just be that high-retention begets realm-creation, rather than the other way around– but, again, that's an investigation for another day).

For a few weeks, if not months, I have been pointing out that the mentor-system is very unrewarding. In Ibladesh (EC), we used to have a sharp increase of new nobles a while ago. I did my utter best to "educate" these nobles to make them stay, because we were in dire need of them. At a certain point we reached 100 nobles, so I figure it basically worked for a few weeks... now we're down to about 70-80 again. That is a massive loss. What I am trying to say is that while being a mentor I found it to be a very altruistic job, where the effort put into teaching new players the game is not properly reward because it is dependent on the new player itself rewarding the old player. This rarely happens in general (or am I just an exception?), and even when it does happen, you need more than one new player to reward you before you can do anything "fun" with it (the options aren't even that amazing). Not to mention that "education" can take up to 60 or even 100 days, and that most players by then already feel they know the game and don't see the need to reward their mentor any more.

I think there are several solutions to this. First would be an overhaul of the entire mentor system to make this type of game-play more competitive (compared to other classes). For starters, the class "mentor" can be removed or can be allowed as a third-class option, so it is no burden on the players who decide they actually want to work on keeping Battlemaster alive. Another option would be "force" new players into having a mentor - and maintaining contact with that mentor. I assume that now about 25% of the new players end up lost without a mentor and get auto-removed after two weeks. Probably 95% of them is just not interested in a text-based game. But that 5% might have become a real BM-player if they were probably guided.

Next to that the rewarding system for mentors still has to change. The battlemaster-community simply doesn't do enough to attract new players. I personally think that our devs (and Tom) are doing wonderful jobs, as well as some other players... but it should be more than that. Everybody should be aware of "retention" and should at least try to help out new players. A friendly and welcoming atmosphere is what keeps players here, even if they are initially not attracted to the type of game. I just recently experienced that myself, as I began playing a game I wasn't really attracted too, but it had a community so welcoming that I just wanted to hang around more.

I am still in favour of a rather small island where new players (only) can join, "guided" by a few experienced players that roam around in the realms (I picture this as the old War Islands) to teach them. Here new players can get used to the game, but also to things such as "being a lord", "being a council member" and many, many more aspects of the game. But I believe these ideas should fit in another thread where we can tackle the problem of a declining player base and the lack of mentor-rewarding goodies in the game itself.

This seems like an issue for a second thread. Again, my goal right now isn't to answer the question "Does better mentoring create better retention?" I hope the answer to that is "yes." But right now I just want to see if there are actually differences between continents.

I think these should be separated. I have never been on FEI before, so the only assumption I can make is that people are drawn there because it is an RP-heavy island. I know for myself that one day I will go there just for the RP-possibilities. Now Dwilight is a continent with many "unexplored" regions. Colonizing (read: the chance of making your own realm and write a little core history) is always attracting new players. Beluaterra had this kind of attraction back when it was still called "The New World" and was largely rogue. The fact that there are new realms being formed on Dwilight on a regular basis is what keeps players attracted to that continent. I believe however that, when it gets fully colonized, it will need to find something else to attract characters. But it is large enough to ensure many, many wars.

Beluattera might attract people because it is partially blighted ("This looks cool!") and because it had a mini-game set up around the invasion that created quite the buzz. Such things stimulate players to join these continents. Next to that an all-out war just broke out (with the exception of Melhed). Wars are always good.

Those all sound plausible. I suggested in the first or second run of the data that the "themed islands" may be better at retention. This would make sense. So far, this is the only macro-theory I have on why some islands do better than others, because it's the only variable I've come up with that identifies issues at a continental level: the presence of a "theme." The Colonies has a theme that is inherently confounding for any study of retention or activity, so can be discounted. EC and Atamara are "vanilla BM." FEI is the "weakest" of the theme islands in terms of retention, and also has the "weakest" theme (the RP-heavy theme), but one that has recently seen some new strength with the development of Arcaea's hegemony. Beluaterra has a distinct theme of Invasions, Dwilight has a distinct frontier/colonial theme, but, due to player engagement, also has an interesting religious theme– though, if reports from within Sanguis Astroism are to be believed, that religious theme may be dying off demographically.

You just described EC.

Or Atamara. Take your pick.

My last suggestion is that a questionnaire is held: this would be able to give everyone clear and conclusive data and would allow us to tackle the problem more thoroughly. It is only by asking nearly every players that we can reveal what the "wants" and "dont's" are. The numbers given here by Vellos are very interesting and do show that there are some issues, but numbers rarely explain human behaviour: they only give an indication of it. Only by going out there and asking people how they feel about the game will give clearance.

I have been advocating for player surveys in various forms for several months. Nobody has made any substantive criticism of it. The only negative thing I've heard is that no devs have the time/interest to get around to implementing it, which is fair enough I suppose. Anyways, welcome to the BM-survey-data bandwagon.
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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #307: August 12, 2011, 04:40:01 PM »
I believe every continent attracts different kind of players. Now, since we have many characters, we'll also play on islands which aren't our favorites.

This is probably true, but would require some large-scale cluster analysis to meaningfully demonstrate.

Whatever the case, because I believe it is true that EC and Atamara have meaningful player niches, I noted that, even if they have bad retention, that is not necessary justification for closing them.
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egamma

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #308: August 13, 2011, 05:46:23 AM »
What about destroyed realms could be unappealing? Hm, here's an idea: imagine a continent where one or two massive realms have never been taken down, never been defeated, despite sometimes vast alliances arranged against them. This/these realms are characterized by strong geographic advantages, very stable internal politics, and ruthless hegemony over their neighbors. They repeatedly destroy or dismember any realm near them that challenges their hegemony. They thus create constant drains on retention on their continents.

Congratulations! You've described the Colonies, where Lukon has been partly responsible for the destruction of Portion, Alebad, Alowca, and Wetham. Oriolton is ever Lukon's ally, and is the only realm large enough to possibly defeat Lukon.

Giblot, Minas Thalion, and the Assassins stand in line, waiting for Lukon to destroy them in turn.

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #309: August 14, 2011, 01:54:13 AM »
This is interesting, actually. I didn't know anything about the colonies but, now that you mention it, I can see Lukon being such a power.

I suppose Beluaterra is more evenly balanced, as Enweil's block has meaningful resistance. FEI has no clear hegemon and complex politics. Dwilight.... SA is hegemonic maybe, but has a strongly RP-driven hegemony... and there re huge parts of the continent quite unconnected to SA.

Very interesting: a quick survey of Dwilight indicates that the realms that have gained nobles are Aurvandil, Barca, D'Hara, Libero, Madina, Pian en Luries, and Terran. Losers are Summerdale, Morek, Luria Nova, Itaulond, Caerwyn, Astrum. Stable are Fissoa, Corsanctum, Asylon. I looked at simple positive/negative, not really carefully analyzing amounts.

Still, at face value, this list seems, to me, to suggest that aggressive hegemonies do decrease retention, and not just for the losers. The big losers are the belligerents (Morek, Itaelond, Caerwyn, Astrum). Madina and Aurvandil are in a fairly stable war, and both gained. All Maroccidental realms gained. Luria Nova gained despite expansion, Pian en Luries gained despite contraction. Really, Luria Nova and Summerdale are the only major outliers I see in that list.

If/when I get time, I'll review the situation in the Colonies, EC, and Atamara as well.

IF we find that aggressive hegemonies reliable decrease retention on BOTH sides of the war... what would our response be? It'd essentially be a statistical support to the criticisms of gang-bang wars... except not only do they drive away players in losing realms, but also in winning realms.
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Vellos

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #310: August 14, 2011, 03:08:37 AM »
So, I did the numbers.

Now then, methodology here is not compatible with my continent-by-continent data. That data is in three categories: registered, active in past 3 days, and active in last 24 hours. It has no measure whatsoever of "characters currently present and non-paused on continent." The noble counts that go realm-by-realm measure nobles, regardless of activity. So these numbers cannot be meaningfully compared to my other numbers.

Winners in EC: Perdan, Westmoor
Losers in EC: Caligus, Ibladesh, OI, Sirion, SoA
Break-Even: Fontan

Winners in Atamara: Barony of Makar, Caergoth, Coria, Minas Ithil
Losers in Atamara: Cagilan Empire, Carelia, Darka, Eston, Suville, Talerium
Break-Even: Hammarsett, Tara

Winners in the Colonies: Lukon, Outer Tilog
Losers in the Colonies: Assassins
Break-Even: Giblot, Minas Thalion, Oritolon

I see no correlation between hegemony and retention in the Colonies, but maybe I don't understand it well enough. I'm not familiar enough with EC's politics enough to comment meaningfully.

Atamara is interesting, though. The biggest losers are Carelia, Cagilan, and Eston: countries I regard as primary belligerents (or at least they were when I was last there). Other losers are "primary allies" of belligerents: Talerium, Suville, Darka. Winners SEEM to be the less heavily involved nations: Hammarsett, BoM, MI, Caergoth. Outliers may be Coria and Tara. I'm not super-familiar with present Atamara diplomacy, so maybe someone else can flesh this out.

It has occurred to me that big wars may result in hero deaths, deportations, and executions. I am curious how much of the decreased noble counts seen in belligerent nations is due to these effects.
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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #311: August 14, 2011, 04:54:33 AM »
Caergoth is more a "primary ally" than Suville, especially since Suville just withdrew from the war completely.  Caergoth also gained an entire duchy, which likely matters.
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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #312: August 14, 2011, 05:04:24 AM »
So, I did the numbers.

Now then, methodology here is not compatible with my continent-by-continent data. That data is in three categories: registered, active in past 3 days, and active in last 24 hours. It has no measure whatsoever of "characters currently present and non-paused on continent." The noble counts that go realm-by-realm measure nobles, regardless of activity. So these numbers cannot be meaningfully compared to my other numbers.

Winners in EC: Perdan, Westmoor
Losers in EC: Caligus, Ibladesh, OI, Sirion, SoA
Break-Even: Fontan

Winners in Atamara: Barony of Makar, Caergoth, Coria, Minas Ithil
Losers in Atamara: Cagilan Empire, Carelia, Darka, Eston, Suville, Talerium
Break-Even: Hammarsett, Tara

Winners in the Colonies: Lukon, Outer Tilog
Losers in the Colonies: Assassins
Break-Even: Giblot, Minas Thalion, Oritolon

I see no correlation between hegemony and retention in the Colonies, but maybe I don't understand it well enough. I'm not familiar enough with EC's politics enough to comment meaningfully.

Atamara is interesting, though. The biggest losers are Carelia, Cagilan, and Eston: countries I regard as primary belligerents (or at least they were when I was last there). Other losers are "primary allies" of belligerents: Talerium, Suville, Darka. Winners SEEM to be the less heavily involved nations: Hammarsett, BoM, MI, Caergoth. Outliers may be Coria and Tara. I'm not super-familiar with present Atamara diplomacy, so maybe someone else can flesh this out.

It has occurred to me that big wars may result in hero deaths, deportations, and executions. I am curious how much of the decreased noble counts seen in belligerent nations is due to these effects.

Um, I have to disagree with these numbers if this means what I think it does. Does "winners" indicate realms that are gaining nobles? Because I know for sure that Coria has steadily lost nobles over the past year. A year ago we had around 40 nobles or more, now we are around 20. So Corai would definitely be in the "loser" category.

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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #313: August 14, 2011, 05:05:30 AM »
These numbers measure the last 3 months.
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Re: Retention Revisited
« Reply #314: August 14, 2011, 03:10:36 PM »
These numbers measure the last 3 months.

Then you should double-check your numbers. BoM has definitely not been gaining members in any appreciable amount. The couple we've gained in that time period are completely inactive.