Author Topic: Too large realms (possibility of penalizing bigger realms more?)  (Read 25838 times)

Fleugs

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Well, apparently, we are not to abandon nationalism as a concept... so I see no problem with up to 100 nobles all being "friends" in one realm. That's nationalism for you, right there.

The fact that great realms have acquired their size through competence might be through, but I don't think they are limited in their abilities to grow larger. With Ibladesh we established a colony in Aix to expand our influence. That's the point where the game is right now: you are huge and it tells you you cannot possibly take another city. I believe the game should say way sooner that such a centralized form of government is impossible in a medieval setting.

A note on your point about "tensions": such tensions would be invoked if there was a form of ducal independence. Of course, there are always tensions in a big realm (somebody doesn't like somebody else), but once a higher authority steps in and tells both parties to play nice, it mostly puts a stop to it. With ducal independence, you'd have a nice fight over such discussion.
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Indirik

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A note on your point about "tensions": such tensions would be invoked if there was a form of ducal independence. Of course, there are always tensions in a big realm (somebody doesn't like somebody else), but once a higher authority steps in and tells both parties to play nice, it mostly puts a stop to it. With ducal independence, you'd have a nice fight over such discussion.
Dukes can always play hell with a realm if they don't want to support the government. Pull your army back from the front lines. Refuse to provide gold for the ruler's pet projects. Reassign all your knights to your own army and make yourself the Marshal, then keep them home to do police work and defend your duchy. Have all your lords sell their food to you, and not to your neighbors. All of this, of course, depends on your ability to influence your lords and knights. But then, if you can't do that, then you're not a powerful duke after all. You're just a figurehead.
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Kain

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Dukes can always play hell with a realm if they don't want to support the government. Pull your army back from the front lines. Refuse to provide gold for the ruler's pet projects. Reassign all your knights to your own army and make yourself the Marshal, then keep them home to do police work and defend your duchy. Have all your lords sell their food to you, and not to your neighbors. All of this, of course, depends on your ability to influence your lords and knights. But then, if you can't do that, then you're not a powerful duke after all. You're just a figurehead.

Can indeed, but since the Dukes have been put their by showing their loyalty to the ruler, I think most just stick with that character trait.
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Stue (DC)

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Well, apparently, we are not to abandon nationalism as a concept... so I see no problem with up to 100 nobles all being "friends" in one realm. That's nationalism for you, right there.

that has very little to do with grand plans or global concepts, and i doubt majority of players care for theoretical background of their actions, but that is related to the fact that among 80-100 people there must be enough ambitious/nasty/drama-loving players who would do something over endless obedience, if they have chance.

this does not mean large realms would disappear, but if such unnatural element is removed, leader of such large realms would have about equal headache with outside war and interior rebellious groups.


A note on your point about "tensions": such tensions would be invoked if there was a form of ducal independence. Of course, there are always tensions in a big realm (somebody doesn't like somebody else), but once a higher authority steps in and tells both parties to play nice, it mostly puts a stop to it. With ducal independence, you'd have a nice fight over such discussion.

all about dukes. we apparently agree that thing revolve about dukes, but i have completely opposite opinion of what should happen. dukes have all bloody options in the world to do whatever they want, and the only reason for not using it is that they are so protected and untouchable in their posts that it is simply not practical for them to take risks when they can only lose.

if, for instance many times mentioned option to apply city direct taxing would go alive, i believe things would be completely different.

nobody simpy should go on forums and dev threads talking what is nationalism, and what is medieval landed lord rights - that would be resolved in-game, not on dev's desks.

rulers - put very large  taxes  if you want; dukes - secession, rebellion, protest, plot etc. etc. that is natural reason for ic conflict, which does not need any intervention, and i really don't know whether any talk on nationalism is needed, no devs to decide which side will win, as they did not in realm middle age, isn't it. city where i am writing this is formed through secession ca. 900 years age because that time soveriegn put too high taxes on them, they seceded and defended, why some duke should tryt todo the same in lightweight where nobody will be beheaded for real.

dukes are untouchable, they don't need more options, others need more options to press them. in super-centralized realms, dukes are heavy taxed? they need to organize, do something about that. only one duke is overtaxed as ruler dislikes him? he needs to plot, form rebellious party, anyways he needs to do something.


Fleugs

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I hardly believe your city was created through secession.  ;)
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Chenier

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Well the issue seems to be, partially, that new players are not involved enough or that the prospects for becoming "someone" are too small in large realms. When you have multiple small realms, there are simply way more positions to hand out... for starters. Next to that, it just sounds like fun to me. I mean, no huge battles and such, but rather smaller clashes. I think it would intensify the "feel of play" for many people, because they can relate more to a smaller realm.

Big monolithic realms tend to have lower social mobility and such new characters have a hard time going up the ladder of power, but I believe divided and conflicted realms tend to scare most new players and don't integrate them as well. Theoretically, I would think it should be the opposite, but I guess that's just because of my style of play. Instead of being excited about all the strife going on, they seem to just be too confused and intimidated, with a general feeling that the realm is basically too incompetent to work together for a common goal. Most of the new players from which I had feedback that started with some characters in divided realms seem to react like this. They don't feel like they are part of a smaller team, they simple feel there isn't any team at all.

Personally, though, I tend to prefer smaller realms. I've grown a liking to Enweil, in part because of the power it allows me to wield, but overall I feel small realms are best. But nationalism is something you just can't defeat by saying it's bad, because every ruler and council member has every reason in the world to promote it. It is usually the easiest way to get anything done. And really, it's just a pejorative word for team spirit. If you want to end nationalism, it means you want to end team play being on the realm level. At which point you are basically turning the duchies into realms. How far down should we kill nationalism?

I think you've been accostomed to the bm-standard of what a small realm is. When I'm saying small realm, I mean 1-5 regions or so.
If it has 7 like Medina and D´Hara or 10 like Libero Empire, it is not small, more like medium.
13+ is large. 20+ is huge empires. 25+ is insane.

You are correct that Asylon, Barca and Aurvandil are small realms (in my opinion) but I am mostly speaking about EC, FEI and Atamara now since Dwilight and Beluaterra has special conditions (all the monsters/undead and still colonizing).

I agree, I don't consider D'Hara to be a "small realm", especially considering that 3 of its 7 regions are decently-sized cities. That being said, I like medium realms as well, they tend to hold most of the small realms' characteristics, but on a larger scale.

Can indeed, but since the Dukes have been put their by showing their loyalty to the ruler, I think most just stick with that character trait.

When the western duchies of Enweil got neglected by the central government time after time after the invasion, it got organized. Despite being tiny border cities with big control problems, constant spawns, and a whooping 3 regions in their 2 duchies, they pulled all of their nobles out of the main army and created the Western Defenders army, which also got knights from the duchy of Fengen belonging to its western regions. Now, the army is moving in an organized matter, the constant rogue spawns are dealt with almost always immediately, Iato has fully recovered from its long rogue occupations and regions are being added to the west to allow its duchies to grow. Since the Army of Fengen was still big enough to deal with all the rogues of the east and north, the Western Defenders just don't bother with these anymore, sticking purely to their area.

Most stick with blind following, but to a certain extent. I've seen others organize whenever they see their duchies in trouble, as being duke grants considerable power and wealth (not to mention being a permanent position as long as the city doesn't revolt) and nobody wants to lose this. Not so much motivation for most lords, but there is considerable incentives for dukes to say "shove it" to the rest of the realm if they feel neglected.

As such, from my experiences, dukes of stable cities tend to be very loyal to the ruler as such obedience guarantees that their reign is not threatened. However, if their risk of losing their duchy is greater from staying loyal than from standing up, then we see a lot more dukes actually standing up for themselves. Isolated, neglected, starving and/or revolting cities were the source of a great number of the game's secessions, I believe. Dukes often prefer a secession than having their cities turn rogue (and then risking not getting it back).
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Chenier

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Truth is, as one of the people who started off in Fontan, for my first 1.5 years doing not much else beyond setting my unit and going into battles, it's not fun. The letters were either long, or pointless, but all of them were stupid. At a certain point I just filtered types to orders because I knew I wasn't missing out on anything else. I will make a gamble in the belief that what people like seeing is their unit, as part of a bigger group, crush other people's groups, in actual tangible ways.

Same here. Lot of adrenaline over these battles, and knowing if we'd succeed or not, how many men I'd lose, what would the next orders be and so forth. Every little battle was an event worthy to mark on the calendar.
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Kain

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One question now that we say Dukes have so much power. Can the ruler still doubt the nobility of anyone not of royal rank? Because if that still exists then the duke is not very safe anyway?
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Chenier

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Let's face it, "realm as team" is ingrained in the deepest structures of the game. And it is also ingrained in the habits of the players. I'm not an "Ohioan", I'm an "American". And other players are Canadians, Germans, Australians, etc.

I'm not Canadian, I'm Québécois!  8)
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Chenier

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One question now that we say Dukes have so much power. Can the ruler still doubt the nobility of anyone not of royal rank? Because if that still exists then the duke is not very safe anyway?

Short answer: no, he can't anymore. Judges can still ban all non-royals, though.
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Vellos

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I'm not Canadian, I'm Québécois!  8)

Which perhaps explains why your characters are compulsively annoying.

Big monolithic realms tend to have lower social mobility and such new characters have a hard time going up the ladder of power,

Something I have also generally assumed; but I wonder: is it actually true? With enough data we could test it. Get the account IDs for every position (lord, marshal, council) in every realm on a continent, and find their distributions within and across realms.

Yeah... I have a lot of free time... but not THAT much free time.
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Chenier

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Which perhaps explains why your characters are compulsively annoying.

Something I have also generally assumed; but I wonder: is it actually true? With enough data we could test it. Get the account IDs for every position (lord, marshal, council) in every realm on a continent, and find their distributions within and across realms.

Yeah... I have a lot of free time... but not THAT much free time.

Neither do I, but quick checks at time in realm of the people with government positions offers a good hint. Many/most realms have a "next in line" mentality, and it just happens that there are a lot more people in line when your realm has 200 nobles than when it has 15.

From my experiences, mobility really is greater in smaller realms. Not saying that there is no mobility at all in big realms, as that depends on various circumstances (it wouldn't be too hard to become a lord in Enweil, for example, because of the amount of nobles killed off in the invasion and the number of adjacent rogue regions). But generally-speaking, the smaller the realm, the easier it is to go up. Something that may factor in this is the low maintenance of small realms and their greater ease to expand, whereas large realms face harsher and harsher penalties for growing and therefore a lower and lower desire to actually do so.
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De-Legro

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I'm not Canadian, I'm Québécois!  8)

Aussies only refer to ourselves as such when dealing with other nationalities. Amongst ourselves we either identify with our home state, or our home city which ever seems more appropriate at the time. For instance I refer to myself as a  novocastrian, though I am at risk of becoming a Melbournian if I remain here much longer.
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Silverfire

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Just relooked at the forum after months upon months, and reading through this thread, I find it odd that it wasn't mentioned that larger realms also tend to get the vast majority of new nobles from newer players from my own personal experience at least. I'm a part of large and small realms but nobles almost always seem to be joining new into large realms while not as much in small realms. I think that is likely one reason large realms stay large. They get more nobles to join them, then smaller realms some times. Yes, sometimes good small realms can retain their nobles more for reasons, but there are other times that realms just start falling apart because the lack of nobility prevents them from doing anything else compared to the large realms around them. My example here is Coria, although it may not be considered a small realm by other continent standards, it certainly is in Atamara, at least by number of nobles.

Heq

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I think the political progression system depends on the realm.  Some realms are inherantly more anarchistic then others so progression is easier.

Political identity is a hard thing to get, as it is historically more religious and racial then regional.  I'll use Chenier and myself as modern examples.  Compared to other nations we are Canadian, except in reference to our "home" (say, France and Ireland) countries, to whom we are provincial (Quebecois or Avalonian), however, while we are clearly from different areas, the term RoC (Rest of Canada) is a shared concept.

A French Catholic is Quebec has more in common with a Catholic Avalonian then a Protestant Avalonian has with that same Catholic Avalonian who grew up two blocks away.  Eastern Canada is vastly more progressive then any state represented in battlemaster and while I wouldn't want mechanical forces put in play, I'm really of the mind that there should be a mental pecking order for many nobles.

1.  Same religion
2.  Political advantage
3.  Regional allies

This will solve the "big realm" issue as say, Dutchy #1 in the north will constantly be trying to keep Dutchy #2 in the sotuh from gaining position and power, which will eventually lead to either a political or scessionistic throwdown.  I'd love to see more Dukes pushing "their guy", rather then "who's the best".