Author Topic: Monster Problems  (Read 50280 times)

DeVerci

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #15: April 26, 2016, 06:34:28 PM »
This may not be true of any other realm on Dwilight, but not a single player in Westgard gets to complain that the monsters are too hard, when we explicitly stated that it would be a very hard fight just to survive there.
The monsters aren't the hard part, its the +12 hour travel times between regions in the spring while monsters cross in one turn. But we manage.

Anaris

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #16: April 26, 2016, 06:35:14 PM »
The monsters aren't the hard part, its the +12 hour travel times between regions in the spring while monsters cross in one turn. But we manage.

Ah...that is also a bug, actually.

I will see if I can pin it down today. That one's irritated me before.
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DeVerci

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #17: April 26, 2016, 06:40:24 PM »
Ah...that is also a bug, actually.

I will see if I can pin it down today. That one's irritated me before.
Is it our travel times or their travel times that is the bug? I thought regular travel was effected by the region production levels, thus the "very bad, bad" road signs.
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Aquitain (Westgard)
extremely bad road, 136 miles, ca. 16 hours
Gelene Outskirts (Westgard)
bad road, 172 miles, ca. 13 hours

Anaris

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #18: April 26, 2016, 06:42:00 PM »
Is it our travel times or their travel times that is the bug? I thought regular travel was effected by the region production levels, thus the "very bad, bad" road signs.

That's correct. It's their travel times that are the bug.

I observed in the not-too-distant past monsters embarking on a ferry route that should have taken them about 3 days to cross arrive the following turn.

Something in the turn scripts is definitely not paying proper attention.

Update: I found it. It was a stupid reversed comparison sign (basically, "if MonsterGroup's time left to travel is > 0" rather than "if MonsterGroup's time left to travel is ≤ 0" put them at their destination and finish the travel).

All monster travel subsequent to this should now operate based on (essentially) the same rules as player travel. This includes appearing in the region showing "approaching from Keplerville" once they're less than a turn's travel away, which should make it much less shocking to be on the receiving end of a group coming across a sea route.

Now, to look into sea-zone travel...
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 07:50:58 PM by Anaris »
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Blue Star

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #19: April 27, 2016, 02:50:04 AM »
This is not the right strategy to increase player density. In fact this may be the exact opposite of the right strategy. D'Haran nobles are not going to join other realms if they lose their estates. They are either going to emigrate or just quit the game. If you want to encourage the players to bunch up, have the Monsters attack the realms with low player density. They actually have ground to give.

I personally have to say I agree with Mr. Panda.
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Ketchum

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #20: April 27, 2016, 07:49:38 AM »
The question, or issue rather, is not whether it is meant to have a frontier feel to it, I do think there is a point in that, but the issue is that I think it is driving away players by not giving them a chance to otherwise play the game. If a mechanic is driving away a player base, then surely it should be reconsidered. I know that I have felt less inclined to play due to the ferocity and unrelenting nature of it all, and it seems from talks in OOC that a few other players have felt the same, which I am sure was not the intention.

As for the help you speak of, the issue is that most realms are pressured, and the amount of nobles in the realms are not that grand, with that add the distance some of them would have to travel, they would come, fight a few battles, have to retreat, and it would have made no real difference due to the continuous swarms.
Thank you for your explanation. You are right. This is likely to drive away players. And we trying to keep players :(
Werewolf Games: Villager (6) Wolf (4) Seer (3); Lynched as Villager(1). Lost as Villager(1), Lost as Wolf(1) due to Parity. Hunted as Villager(1). Lynched as Seer(2).
Won as Villager(3). Won as Seer(1). Won as Wolf(3).
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GoldPanda

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #21: April 27, 2016, 08:46:33 AM »
The trouble is, as things stand, the monsters are in the west, and the realms you just named are standing directly in almost every past from west to east.

Have Undead hordes rise up from the sea and attack Dwilight's east coast.
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Nosferatus

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #22: April 27, 2016, 09:22:33 AM »
Now we can finally RP sea monsters.

I think this will definitely take the edge off for the frontier realms.

Will the monsters also face penalties upon landing against a stationary enemy?
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
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Noone you know

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #23: April 27, 2016, 12:50:45 PM »
As the Ruler of Westgard, I think I should probably weight in on this. :-)

1) I don't know what the exact cause was, but at one time we reached the point of 94,000cs monsters. They took back all of our regions except the capitol. They then cross into Astrum, or they would have finished us off - with no regions, we had no troops we could recruit, and were basically finished.

I have the feeling a GM stepped in and saved us. In either case, perhaps a some sort of cap on the spawning to keep things within reason? At the moment we are kind of breathing & living the "easy life" - we have a couple regions under threat, but are solid. I can understand it being more challenging than this, but not to the extreme it went.

2) Thank you for looking into the rogue travel bug. Unit testing works - give it a try.

3) I have been saying for years - REMOVE THE EXTRA "REALISM" TRAVEL TIMES. It ruins the island. Everyone spends all their time traveling. It was an interesting idea, but being a game should trump being realistic, and a game where all you do is travel is boring.

4)  A goal. I have been roleplaying about "The Order" -  an imaginary group of black magic wizards or whatever driving the hordes against us. Someone mentioned bringing in the Zuma more.

I know the GMs are already running the Invasion on BT and so are a bit stretched, but perhaps there needs to be a "reason" to keep pushing. Otherwise it just slips back into "get a region for everyone" mentality, and we really don't have so many players for that. The "desperate fight against the hordes" will only have so much steam before it becomes mechanical to everyone.

I'm really not sure what the end game to push for is, but I think if something could be thought of, it would really spice up the island.

Vita`

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #24: April 28, 2016, 04:51:32 AM »
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I don't presume to think I know the answer, however, I will be willing to spar some theoretic ideas. Could one be to simply sink the Western Isle of Dwilight?
I do not think so.

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The realms with the highest player densities on Dwilight are Westgard, Madina, and D'Hara, which are exactly the realms which are getting swarmed with Monsters because "player density is too low". The human realms are giving ground very slowly precisely because they are the realms who can least afford to give up ground.
That's like saying the security company is not working because there are no burglers around since hiring the security company. It's not a useful comparison because you are comparing the current densities and using that as reason why the policy implemented before the current densities is not working as if they always had those high densities and did not in fact have lower densities. Madina was one of the worst, lowest densities before these changes. D'Hara has always been slightly higher than other realms on Dwilight ebcaues of less regions/more gold city-island phenomena. Westgard didn't even exist. You didn't mention Astrum, but its density was probably only a touch better than Madina. Between island sinking folks interested in playing on the frontier emigrations, and monsters chipping away on regions, of course they now have higher density. They are where the action is! And as I wrote above, the density is measured in island-wide terms, not realm terms. Because otherwise you would have realms isolated from each other and unable to interact. Rather, what is desired is for humanity's edge to slowly crumble, not to isolate realms away from each other surrounded by long marches through rogue monster territory.

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This is not the right strategy to increase player density. In fact this may be the exact opposite of the right strategy. D'Haran nobles are not going to join other realms if they lose their estates. They are either going to emigrate or just quit the game. If you want to encourage the players to bunch up, have the Monsters attack the realms with low player density. They actually have ground to give.
And this is what is frustrating that players prefer to keep their IC titles and estates than try to improve the game so new players don't have so many boring realms to choose from. Again, attacking by realm density will result in realms being isolated from each other. What you're basically asking is that realms with lower density are killed so that frontier realms can survive long enough to become isolated away from humanity and besieged by monsters on both sides.

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And I know that the GMs did not intend it as such, but putting the refugee realm on western Dwilight just seems spiteful in hindsight. "We are sinking your island. What's that? You want to keep playing? You can go play meat-shields for some strangers on this other island."
No. There was not a single realm. There was a specifically advertised frontier realm and three EC realms to provide blank slate realms, in addition to whatever shenanigans could be had in a pre-existing realm with a large group of folks. They were destination choices.

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The addition of portal stones is quite interesting though.
Maybe their spawn rate could be similar to the rogues spawn rate in Dwilight, based on Player density on the continent.
Realms could destroy them selves with the effects of the portal stones or destroy realms using them.
This way the players get to do the mopping up.
In addition to their initial effects, portals could serve as beacons, drawing many rogues towards it.
This could be used to save your realm as well as destroy it or or other realms.
Portal stones were not added, they've always been aware. I increased the overall advy game item generation to improve the sage/wizard experience from a time when having the item you needed was rare for an older, experienced advy. This inadvertently increased portal stone generation. Also, GMs had a bit of free time to write roleplays for the portal events. I think we intend to leave it as a Summon Unexpected Event. Some of the portals on Dwilight cleared monsters for frontier realms.

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Another idea could be to involve the Zuma into this, play them based on player density, or perhaps even the amount of inter realm conflicts.
If there isn't enough war the Zuma come to destroy some realms.
These realms get a chance in saving them selves by defending and using portal stones, or worshipping the Zuma and go to war with their neighbours.
This might be doable in some form. But I do not think the Zuma have ever destroyed a realm.

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Rogues spawn rate could also go in waves, still based on player density.
Testing island spawn rate does change based upon season.

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Another alternative is to adjust food production on player density.
Food production is reduced for lordless regions now.

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My first impression upon seeing Dwilight island is this is People fight against Environment. (PvE as some players may call it)
Indeed. Dwilight is Frontier. Beluaterra are Invasions. Colonies are Slow. War is War. EC is Normal.

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Have Undead hordes rise up from the sea and attack Dwilight's east coast.
This might be doable in some form.

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Will the monsters also face penalties upon landing against a stationary enemy?
I would imagine the landing penalties are the same regardless of who is landing upon teh shore.

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In either case, perhaps a some sort of cap on the spawning to keep things within reason?
Rather, travel destination changes so they do not form one 94k CS stack, but multiple smaller stacks throughout multiple regions wandering in diverse directions. Some improvements have already been made since the 94k CS stack.

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4)  A goal.
I have some ideas to confer with Anaris about.

Blue Star

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #25: April 28, 2016, 06:21:11 AM »
Alright let's cut the crap Dev Team and Players...

Give us back 2 characters per contient. This all whittles down to this, if you are going to literally have these spawn rates so high and want to keep this going give us back 2 Nobles per contient and let us play like we used to. The change was from what I've gathered had little effect on characters it made us more docile than we already were especially since you did it once you sunk two islands that honestly were pretty damn active though brutal on some people's mentality. If you can honestly show some implication of growth or activity due to going to 1 Noble per contient I dare say show it.

Give us back out two nobles per contient. Finally open up Dwi maybe even to two Nobles. Do something geez this game has really just been  unwelcoming the last few months if not 2 years since I returned. I mean I appreciate the add ons, but they don't mask that we lose more, than we get. Give our player community a fighting chance again.

I mean most of us oldies know Tom seems to have more or less abandoned us here unless we play might and fealty, but the changes taking place I don't think he ever envisioned the game going in such a way. Many of us log in not even to play, but to stay some what active in light of a positive change. I doubt anyone logs in anymore for more than 5-10 minutes per turn.. there just isn't a need to anymore.
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Noone you know

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #26: April 28, 2016, 07:29:35 AM »
That's a pretty twisted view of things.

Atamara was an absolute [email protected]#$hole for years.  Even the dev team would come here and make rude comments about it; why they never stepped in with an invasion or something instead is beyond me. FEI was pretty much the same.

All of the other islands are more fun than they've possibly ever been.

Dwilight is simply too big.

GundamMerc

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #27: April 28, 2016, 09:46:52 AM »
Me being an idiot. Nothing worth looking at.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 07:24:26 PM by GundamMerc »

Anaris

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #28: April 28, 2016, 04:40:20 PM »
Tom, at this point you're being dense, so I hope you'll forgive me if I say YOU MISSED THE ENTIRE POINT OF WHAT HE WAS SAYING.

The past density doesn't matter, because the past density had zero effect on the current monster code, which targets low noble density areas more. This code went in while the realms in question were at their current density. So your rant here is meaningless. Especially the part regarding Westgard.

Besides that, the reason that these realms in question are constantly under attack isn't some policy failure, but the fact that said realms are holding all the crossing points to the east because currently monsters can't use sea zones.

a) That's not Tom. If you're going to loudly yell at someone for being dense and missing stuff, it behooves you to at least take the bare modicum of time required to make sure you know who the hell you're actually talking to.

b) I don't see how anything you said refutes the general thrust of his point, even if he may have made it somewhat clumsily.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Anaris

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Re: Monster Problems
« Reply #29: April 29, 2016, 03:19:42 PM »
Split off the Atamara tangent to its own thread on the appropriate board.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan