Author Topic: East Continent Concerns About Xavax and Perdan  (Read 65747 times)

Gabanus family

  • Board Moderator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1340
    • View Profile
Allow me to break this down a bit more rational and logical than GundanMerc.

North is kinda screwed up. It will take a while to do anything with it. And I'm sure we'll get there.

The fact that it will take a while is actually more reason to start doing it now, rather than later. In fact, this entire line of argumentation speaks in favor of warring in the north rather than the south, as you do now, and without doing anything (cause you aren't in this case) nothing will happen. Of that I'm sure!

I'm actually disappointed we had to make this detour although I do recognize it was necessary.

Allow me to explain next why this wasn't necessary and therefore further increase your disappointment.

The South on the other hand looks very interesting and fresh. There's a lot of potential there and I'd just hate to see it turn into a boring dominate. I honestly believe we're helping the server in general by not letting Xavax finish off Alara.
Of course, that's just my humble opinion.

I am of the opinion that this is indeed exactly what Caligus (and Fallangard in a way) are doing. They brought the war against Xavax to a point where it would be more even again in terms of noble count and force. With those forces, the war would have actually been fun and the south would have enjoyed it. What Perdan has done however (and what I still expect Caligus to do tbh, but that is beyond this specific point) is to massively uneven this war, making sure one side has way more nobles and income and strength than the other. This will only hasten the end of the fun and actually ruin the fun of other players in my humble opinion.

The south was indeed interesting before Perdan also entered and with that scenario (Vix and Fallangard also entering) I don't see it reasonable for Xavax to destroy any nation as they won't have the forces to break the walls and fight everyone. Breaking the walls of Itorunt would have been extremely difficult even when Xavax was dominating. Now with Vix/Fallangard entering this would have become near impossible. So Perdan in fact is saving nobody, for in the situation you entered, Alara would not have been destroyed.

I also would like to make it clear that the only realm that is currently trying to completely destroy another realm is Xavax.

That is completely rediculous. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with GundanMerc and that happens rarely. Sirion has been trying to completely destroy Oligarch since the beginning (yet another reason apparently why you would war the north). Caligus in fact tried to help Sirion destroy Oligarch, first in the siege at the beginning and even now again. You think that they're there just to have a good laugh? In addition, Caligus has been attempting to wipe out Fallangard since the beginning of that realm as well. The only reason they stopped actively pursuing that, is because Perdan and Eponllyn forcefully made them stop through war. So in fact Caligus is now trying to destroy 2 nations as we speak (Oligarch, by actively helping Sirion and Fallangard) so should they then not be your target?

Do you agree that several strong realms are better than one huge one and a few underfed toadies like Fallangard?

I would prefer a lot of underfed toadies like Fallangard as you call it and wage a lot of none-complete-destruction warfare, but realize that won't happen. What I then would like is to have a more dynamic diplomacy, so wars actually become fun and more around. With a few large strong realms who have much to lose and little to gain and have to look at 2 allies before they move, I believe that would be the way to ruin a continent.

As far as I am aware neither Perdan nor Vix has destroying Xavax or reducing Fallangard to one region as their goals. Where did that come from?

Not yet, but neither did Perdan plan to take Perdan City from Eponllyn and reduce them to almost nothing. If you may remember, that war was about passage rights to assault Sirion, which you've now got, but still it happened.

In addition, the destruction of Fallangard part is directed at Caligus who is rather desperately trying to end their commitment to the war against Oligarch and the only logical step is them joining your war also to wipe out Fallangard, or at least back to only their capital.
New account active chars:
Garas: First Oligarch - Goriad: Astrum - Goriad II: Obia'Syela

Constantine

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
    • View Profile
Allow me to break this down a bit more rational and logical than GundanMerc.
I don't read his posts ever since he was kind enough to throw some personal insults at me and I suspect I'm missing literally nothing.
The fact that it will take a while is actually more reason to start doing it now, rather than later.
There is absolutely nothing happening in Sirion and Nivemus right now, while situation in the south was very quickly deteriorating. Hence this priority order.
Allow me to explain next why this wasn't necessary and therefore further increase your disappointment.
Firstly, a realm can win a war against a twice stronger coalition if the latter's armies have to travel considerable distance. Especially if coordination is poor. I've learned this lesson on Dwilight. I believe you are wrong when you paint Xavax as a clear underdog.
Secondly, this is not a war of conquest or annihilation. You keep pushing this idea that someone wants to destroy Xavax but it holds no water.
So Perdan in fact is saving nobody, for in the situation you entered, Alara would not have been destroyed.
Alara is already destroyed. I was in Fallangard briefly when it was a single province realm. This is a complete stalemate for the players.
Sirion has been trying to completely destroy Oligarch since the beginning (yet another reason apparently why you would war the north). Caligus in fact tried to help Sirion destroy Oligarch, first in the siege at the beginning and even now again. You think that they're there just to have a good laugh?
You're right. I've ignored Oligarch's situation.
In addition, Caligus has been attempting to wipe out Fallangard since the beginning of that realm as well. The only reason they stopped actively pursuing that, is because Perdan and Eponllyn forcefully made them stop through war. So in fact Caligus is now trying to destroy 2 nations as we speak (Oligarch, by actively helping Sirion and Fallangard) so should they then not be your target?
I would personally love to see Xavax on our (anti-imperialist) side. Then we would literally have no other choice but to break Caligus together. But they chose to blob and annihilate neighbours themselves, don't see why they're any better than Caligus at this point.
Not yet, but neither did Perdan plan to take Perdan City from Eponllyn and reduce them to almost nothing. If you may remember, that war was about passage rights to assault Sirion, which you've now got, but still it happened.
Don't compare these two conflicts. Xavax is too far away for it to be a war of conquest. Plus it's regions are of no historical value to Perdan.
In addition, the destruction of Fallangard part is directed at Caligus who is rather desperately trying to end their commitment to the war against Oligarch and the only logical step is them joining your war also to wipe out Fallangard, or at least back to only their capital.
Fallangard entered this war willingly. It was a very dumb move, but I can't force myself to see them as victims in this conflict.
If they are indeed reduced to one city as you predict, we will probably have to eventually help them out again. But for now it's a simple action-reaction sequence that has to ensue.

steelabjur@aol.com

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 266
    • View Profile
There is absolutely nothing happening in Sirion and Nivemus right now, while situation in the south was very quickly deteriorating. Hence this priority order.

Wrong. On both counts. Nothing was going to happen in the south for months and nothing has happened for a month or two. Xavax can't break Alara's walls with it's militia, and that's going nowhere as long as Minas Nova and Perleone are backing them.

Firstly, a realm can win a war against a twice stronger coalition if the latter's armies have to travel considerable distance. Especially if coordination is poor. I've learned this lesson on Dwilight. I believe you are wrong when you paint Xavax as a clear underdog.

You don't need great coordination if two of the coalition together can field an army twice the size of the defenders. Also Perleon, Alara, and Minas Nova don't have nearly as far to travel.

Secondly, this is not a war of conquest or annihilation. You keep pushing this idea that someone wants to destroy Xavax but it holds no water.

Alara and Minas Nova declared Hatred against Xavax. You don't declare Hatred if your intent is simply to claim a couple of border regions.  :P

Alara is already destroyed. I was in Fallangard briefly when it was a single province realm. This is a complete stalemate for the players.

Funny, that Alara raiding party led by their King looks plenty real to me...

You're right. I've ignored Oligarch's situation.

... *shakes head*

I would personally love to see Xavax on our (anti-imperialist) side. Then we would literally have no other choice but to break Caligus together.

So you go to bat for an alliance, two of which are allies of Caligus, against a Federation which one of its members are a big target of Caligus? How does the thought process behind that work?


But they chose to blob and annihilate neighbors themselves, don't see why they're any better than Caligus at this point.

We declared war once, against an enemy that was plotting against us from the word go, and our initial war goal wasn't annihilation. That came after continued insults and an attempted assassination of our Ruler. If they were your neighbors and you had to deal with them regularly you'd probably want them gone too.  ::)

Don't compare these two conflicts. Xavax is too far away for it to be a war of conquest. Plus it's regions are of no historical value to Perdan.

And I'm sure Alara and Perleone won't use your butting in to swell their holdings. Somebody want to roll my eyes back to me? They fell out.

Fallangard entered this war willingly. It was a very dumb move, but I can't force myself to see them as victims in this conflict.

They answered the call of their Federated ally, and even then have been limited in what they could do because Xavax's ruler and Caligus' ruler came to an agreement that limited their involvement inexchange for Caligus not getting involved. An agreement that Caligus chose to modify due to Perdan/Vix's sudden involvement (so Fallangard can actively fight in this conflict now instead of only being allowed to defend Xavax's pre-war regions, as long as they don't go joining Xavax in climbing the Black City's walls)

If they are indeed reduced to one city as you predict, we will probably have to eventually help them out again. But for now it's a simple action-reaction sequence that has to ensue.

I doubt Fallangard will be reduced to one region, Caligus' stated conflict with Fallangard revolves around Abadan and a desire to have the Mines connected to the rest of their realm. However I doubt Fallangard's ability to retain Leibo should they lose that region, which would effectively reduce them to two regions with little hope to grow, which is bad enough.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2016, 03:31:53 AM by steelabjur@aol.com »

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
Alara and Minas Nova declared Hatred against Xavax. You don't declare Hatred if your intent is simply to claim a couple of border regions.  :P

Please don't try to draw ironclad conclusions about intent from diplomatic status.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Gabanus family

  • Board Moderator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1340
    • View Profile
Code: [Select]
I don't read his posts ever since he was kind enough to throw some personal insults at me and I suspect I'm missing literally nothing.

Yeah

[/code]
There is absolutely nothing happening in Sirion and Nivemus right now, while situation in the south was very quickly deteriorating. Hence this priority order.

Nothing happening in the north, other than Sirion, Caligus and Shadowdale who are trying to completely wipe out Oligarch from the face of this earth. In addition, with Vix entering not that much was going to happen in the south. From experience I know how difficult it can be to scale city walls and if you have more enemies to content with, you often can't afford a try at the walls and lose. Once you do, you'll suffer the consequences and to break those walls you in fact need consecutive strikes, or the Lord will simply repair them again. So the situation in the south was already being stabilized.

[/code]
Firstly, a realm can win a war against a twice stronger coalition if the latter's armies have to travel considerable distance. Especially if coordination is poor. I've learned this lesson on Dwilight. I believe you are wrong when you paint Xavax as a clear underdog.

Can, but you never even gave them the chance and yet claim it was for the better of this server in your opinion. With that I disagree 100%. Dwilight and EC cannot be compared in this context. The travel times of the Morek Empire etc was far greater than that of Perdan, or Vix which are still pretty close by. If the situation had been about Sirion entering the conflict in the south, then you would have a point.

[/code]
Secondly, this is not a war of conquest or annihilation. You keep pushing this idea that someone wants to destroy Xavax but it holds no water.

Trust me, there will be people who wish to destroy it, whether or not you can stop the train once it starts moving will be determined. Once Alara and Minas Nova grow stronger, or you as ancient ally of Perleone help them obtain Isadril, will they then not try to push onwards? My point of anihilation was directed towards Fallangard, not Xavax but it seems I was wrong assuming Caligus would also try to enter the conflict. I'm glad about that to be honest, although I also know it will probably mean that Caligus will continue to assist Sirion in her destruction of Oligarch, pushing us back to a single city again.

[/code]
Alara is already destroyed. I was in Fallangard briefly when it was a single province realm. This is a complete stalemate for the players.

This is absolue nonesense in almost all cases. Fallangarrd was the exception to this rule because their City only borders one region and Caligus had cluster!@#$ed it with militia. This way Fallangard was never able to move out of the city succesfully pretty much. Even here the eventually managed it. I have been with Oligarch since the beginning (weird right) and throughout much of our history we've been confined to only Oligarch, trying to break out and take a region or 2, before seeing Sirion return again. Alara too seems to be fighting and raiding outside of the walls. I can assure you that a single city realm still has options, but you have to be smart and carefull though.

[/code]
You're right. I've ignored Oligarch's situation.

And why is the situation in the south worse than the one in the north?

[/code]
I would personally love to see Xavax on our (anti-imperialist) side. Then we would literally have no other choice but to break Caligus together. But they chose to blob and annihilate neighbours themselves, don't see why they're any better than Caligus at this point.

Now let's see. Perdan declared war on Xavax, Caligus (from what I'm reading here) won't although they'd have reason. Now the next time Perdan and Caligus fight (and it will happen, history proves that point) who do you think Xavax is more likely to support? The ones who moved to burn their lands and have their allies take it all, or the ones who stayed out?

And has Perdan ever given them an other choice? Have you even now suggested to make peace with their neighbours if they do something else etc?

[/code]
Don't compare these two conflicts. Xavax is too far away for it to be a war of conquest. Plus it's regions are of no historical value to Perdan.

I used that example to make a point. Even though you set out with one goal, it can easily transform into another, no matter the exact context. Alara and Perleone do have a desire for expansion back into Xavax I would assume and Perdan will be assisting them. The first few regions will be considered logical and in Alara's case the retaking of lost regions, but will it stop there? It can easily progress further. I am not saying that it will, I'm saying that you can't dismiss it as a very distinct possibility.

[/code]
Fallangard entered this war willingly. It was a very dumb move, but I can't force myself to see them as victims in this conflict.
If they are indeed reduced to one city as you predict, we will probably have to eventually help them out again. But for now it's a simple action-reaction sequence that has to ensue.

Then I am very curious to hear what other choices Fallangard has? They are surrounded by Caligus and Vix who have never been their friends. They live on extremely tense foot with Caligus still and there will come a time of war between those two again. This means that Fallangard will need allies and so far the only one who seemed to be willing to do so in a longer term is Xavax, especially since the ever seemingly improving bond between Perdan and Vix. Now read carefully, I'm writing seemingly here, as that's the perception of some people, further fueled by Perdan's entry just after Vix although this happened after Fallangard's choice of course. This means that Xavax is the best and perhaps the only protection Fallangard should expect if it wants to be more than just 3 regions ever in its existence. This is the first reason to help them. Secondly, if Fallangard does not assist now, they will lose all credibility as a nation. They'll be known as the nation who let their greatest ally be beset by 4 nations and did nothing and at the same time as the realm who's always begging for help, but never actually helps someone else. Combined, these two points made this choice the only logical one for Fallangard really, other than trying to gain eternal peace which is boring as hell. It's not dumb, it's the only thing they could do really considering EC's diplomatic climate.

You are right that it's a simple action-reaction, but just not in the way you had imagined it.

Perdan had the option of letting the conflict play out for a month, raid Sirion in the process once or something and see whether or not the conflict in the south has become more balanced or not, while helping to slightly balance the northern situation as well in the same process. In that time there's no way that Xavax would have been able to succesfully scale the walls of Itorunt, so all realms would still be alive. Then if the south remains unbalanced, you can still enter just as easily. Now I'm afraid this move will ruin the war, but we'll see. Maybe you'll still get your ass kicked by Xavax as you seem to think, but I highly doubt it. Not with Perdan's force and distance.
New account active chars:
Garas: First Oligarch - Goriad: Astrum - Goriad II: Obia'Syela

Ketchum

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1667
    • View Profile
North is kinda screwed up. It will take a while to do anything with it. And I'm sure we'll get there. I'm actually disappointed we had to make this detour although I do recognize it was necessary.
Yes, the north looks that way. I am sure a lot of players look at my character Brock right now. Not that I do not do something but still some things are best kept secret ::)

Firstly, a realm can win a war against a twice stronger coalition if the latter's armies have to travel considerable distance. Especially if coordination is poor. I've learned this lesson on Dwilight.
I agree with you on this part, on poor coordination and travel considerable distance factors. Most military characters on BM learnt this much. Nivemus did win the first ever war with Vix, reached its inner lands despite Nivemus far off distance from Vix lands at that time. Then came the second war with Vix, where Nivemus army lost quite badly. The lands distance still remain the same. So it is a hit or miss there. If you have good coordination despite the far distance disadvantage, you can win the battles.

Wrong. On both counts. Nothing was going to happen in the south for months and nothing has happened for a month or two. Xavax can't break Alara's walls with it's militia, and that's going nowhere as long as Minas Nova and Perleone are backing them.

This is absolue nonesense in almost all cases. Fallangarrd was the exception to this rule because their City only borders one region and Caligus had cluster!@#$ed it with militia. This way Fallangard was never able to move out of the city succesfully pretty much. Even here the eventually managed it. I have been with Oligarch since the beginning (weird right) and throughout much of our history we've been confined to only Oligarch, trying to break out and take a region or 2, before seeing Sirion return again. Alara too seems to be fighting and raiding outside of the walls. I can assure you that a single city realm still has options, but you have to be smart and carefull though.
It is difficult to break city wall nowadays with just 1 realm strength alone. I still remembered how Sirion and Caligus combined forces unable to breach Oligarch city wall. Though Oligarch city gold could afford its duke luxury of lot of militia. How many realms did we take to breach Westmoor city last time, Gabanus? Sirion, Eponllyn and Nivemus armies combined, that 3 realms. But you get the idea, nowadays we need at least 2-3 realms with good participating nobles to break the wall.

Perdan had the option of letting the conflict play out for a month, raid Sirion in the process once or something and see whether or not the conflict in the south has become more balanced or not, while helping to slightly balance the northern situation as well in the same process. In that time there's no way that Xavax would have been able to succesfully scale the walls of Itorunt, so all realms would still be alive. Then if the south remains unbalanced, you can still enter just as easily. Now I'm afraid this move will ruin the war, but we'll see. Maybe you'll still get your ass kicked by Xavax as you seem to think, but I highly doubt it. Not with Perdan's force and distance.
Actually Perdan has a few options on their table: Either they deal with Sirion for Sirion previous actions against them, or revenge against Nivemus, they both seems to have ancient rivalry dating back to past Perdan and Nivemus Rulers days. Or finishing off Eponllyn due to Eponllyn Hatred. Also if Perdan still unhappy with Oligarch, they can have their cake too ;)
Werewolf Games: Villager (6) Wolf (4) Seer (3); Lynched as Villager(1). Lost as Villager(1), Lost as Wolf(1) due to Parity. Hunted as Villager(1). Lynched as Seer(2).
Won as Villager(3). Won as Seer(1). Won as Wolf(3).
BM Characters: East Continent(Brock), Colonies(Ash), Dwilight(Gary)

Gabanus family

  • Board Moderator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1340
    • View Profile
The last time Sirion tried to siege Oligarch's walls they managed to bring 32k together with Caligus, failing horribly because Brock was too wounded to declare war ^^ But even then, Oligarch was housing 40k militia and could have done so indefinately with her income (but that would've been quite boring though). Itorunt is only slightly less wealthy, but don't forget you can raise taxes to 20-22% once you're a single city state. Even Itorunt will be able to survive against Xavax, as long as infils don't start doing funny business of course, or you manage to starve the city.

When we breached Westmoor City, we brought a far superior force. Sirion, Nivemus and Eponllyn located in Oligarch City. The main difference however with back then was the noble count. We had been slowly building our military strength, which got me a lot of hatred from many within the northern alliance back then. They wanted to strike the city sooner, but I said no. Sirion fielded about 30 to 35k total back then with 8-10k in Nivemus or so and another 12k in Eponllyn or so (by heart, but they had a lot of nobles back then). So then we sieged with about 40k at least, with the enemy's mobile army refitting still I think. I mean the armies were far bigger back then.

And when you said stuff was happening with Nivemus/Eponllyn/Perdan I had high hopes, but seems we can cross Perdan out :p
New account active chars:
Garas: First Oligarch - Goriad: Astrum - Goriad II: Obia'Syela

Wimpie

  • Developer
  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1777
    • View Profile
May I remind y'all that Perdan and Vix offered peace to Eppy. A treaty where they would keep their original lands, but we get the passage rights we wanted?

May I remind y'all that Eppy denied this peace proposal (they may have their own sound reasons to do so, I'm not arguing about that)? THAT is the reason why we had to push further, because they simply wouldn't sign the damn proposal, until they were pushed back behind the river.

All this other nonsense about Vix wanting to annihilate Xavax or Fallangard,.. have fun making stuff up.  Vix is 10 men strong.
Osgar (Thalmarkin, BT), Jeames (Perleone, EC)
PAUSED: Nasgar (Avernus, DWI), Jari (Outer Tilog, COL)

Gabanus family

  • Board Moderator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1340
    • View Profile
Wimpie, from as well as I remember, Eponllyn was willing to give you passage rights before Perdan City was sieged, but at that point that was no longer enough for Vix and Perdan. Am I wrong here? They long denied it, that's true, but even after they were willing to give you passage rights (original war goal) suddenly extra demands came.

Secondly, who's saying that Vix wants to destroy Xavax or Fallangard? I suggest you read back to what I've said, cause I've said everything but that. In fact I wrote that I like Vix' entering of the war.
New account active chars:
Garas: First Oligarch - Goriad: Astrum - Goriad II: Obia'Syela

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Wimpie, from as well as I remember, Eponllyn was willing to give you passage rights before Perdan City was sieged, but at that point that was no longer enough for Vix and Perdan. Am I wrong here? They long denied it, that's true, but even after they were willing to give you passage rights (original war goal) suddenly extra demands came.

Secondly, who's saying that Vix wants to destroy Xavax or Fallangard? I suggest you read back to what I've said, cause I've said everything but that. In fact I wrote that I like Vix' entering of the war.

If I remember it correctly, I believe they offered it to Perdan not to Vix. Perdan wasn't going to leave Vix behind to fight Sirion.

Gabanus family

  • Board Moderator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1340
    • View Profile
If I remember it correctly, I believe they offered it to Perdan not to Vix. Perdan wasn't going to leave Vix behind to fight Sirion.

That could be so, as I said I don't remember the full details of the events as I was elsewhere pre-occupied so to say in the north. The details aren't even important though. The entire event, no matter what the details are, simply shows that intentions and events can change easily, no matter who's to blame, or what's at the root of the change.
New account active chars:
Garas: First Oligarch - Goriad: Astrum - Goriad II: Obia'Syela

Constantine

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 477
    • View Profile
I would like to bring up another important point here.
The overwhelming majority of realms are just incapable of admitting a loss until they are beaten to a pulp and are unwilling to negotiate surrender until they are no longer able to even sustain a moderately strong position in those negotiations.
I will argue that this factor is the one main reason some realms find themselves in shambles after a war.
Eponllyn's behaviour and eventual fate is a stellar example of this. If Xavax actually believes they're about to be roflstomped (which I really doubt), they'd be wise to negotiate a beneficial peace while it's still possible.

GundamMerc

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
    • View Profile
I would like to bring up another important point here.
The overwhelming majority of realms are just incapable of admitting a loss until they are beaten to a pulp and are unwilling to negotiate surrender until they are no longer able to even sustain a moderately strong position in those negotiations.
I will argue that this factor is the one main reason some realms find themselves in shambles after a war.
Eponllyn's behaviour and eventual fate is a stellar example of this. If Xavax actually believes they're about to be roflstomped (which I really doubt), they'd be wise to negotiate a beneficial peace while it's still possible.

Once again laying Perdan's actions at the feet of Eponllyn. Did Xavax force Perdan to enter this war? Hardly. Don't try avoiding responsibility for the actions of your realm by placing it on the targets of its aggression.

Anaris

  • Administrator
  • Exalted Emperor
  • *
  • Posts: 8525
    • View Profile
The overwhelming majority of realms are just incapable of admitting a loss until they are beaten to a pulp and are unwilling to negotiate surrender until they are no longer able to even sustain a moderately strong position in those negotiations.

This is a sad and frustrating truth in BattleMaster. It is all too common for a realm losing a war to demand peace terms that amount to the surrender of the realm winning the war, just because there are no real consequences for being on the losing side—even if the realm is destroyed.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Gabanus family

  • Board Moderator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1340
    • View Profile
At the same time, many who are winning a war are also unwilling to discuss peace unless they gain rediculous amounts of lands and gold. "Yes, we're winning, so now give us 1 of your 2 cities and we'll stop" which amounts to half your realm or something.
New account active chars:
Garas: First Oligarch - Goriad: Astrum - Goriad II: Obia'Syela