Author Topic: Ideas to make Religion mean something  (Read 3497 times)

Noone you know

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Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Topic Start: May 20, 2016, 09:52:20 AM »
as the title say; think we all know what that means. Here's a couple brainstorms:

1) When I founded a religion, people would join but not follow "holy edicts" so I'd excommunicate them. But nothing actually happens.

There should be a large drop in honor/prestige & maybe affects on your region if you are thrown out of the church.

2) Churches have their own hierarchy in real life. Why not match that with parishes, etc. that collect gold from the temples/peasants, so that you can increase your influence by getting more believers. Also perhaps some prestige bonuses in there as well, would be natural.

A few fame points might even be possible, I'd think - x thousand peasants under your benevolent wing

3) A little far-out from how we actually play, but: make Gods "real". Like the Ancient Greeks, make the Gods actually influence things in the game. Maybe Gods overall believers can be translated into some sort of strength score & they can influence the outcome of battles, or you can sacrifice to them to increase your performance; maybe they will help guide an assassin's hand...

I know we don't want to go too far down that road with mechanics, but maybe there are some ideas that can come of that.
 
4) get rid of the rule where a religion dies when its last temple is destroyed. It should die naturally when no more temples & no more priests who might restart it with a new conversion of a lord, or building a new temple
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 05:43:07 AM by Vita »

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #1: May 20, 2016, 12:33:15 PM »
I like the idea of giving religion a more important place in the game. For instance the possibility of denouncing a nation (as the pope sometimes did) which has negative consequences in regions where the population follows that faith.

And as far as I know churches already collect gold from peasants with temples etc.

What I would also like to see is the possibility of creating different 'factions/flows'  within one religion, or even combining 2 religions which are similar. I mean, small churchess should be able to be stolen and converted to your own faith as well, or stuff like that.

But at the same time I also understand that this will prob take quite some dev time which may be better spend elsewhere.
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GundamMerc

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #2: May 21, 2016, 12:57:35 AM »
I think Religions should not be given mechanic powers. SA was plenty powerful through influence alone with very few religion specific mechanics. In fact it got so powerful that things began to grow boring on Dwilight outside and inside the SA bloc until the ESA split.

Vita`

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #3: May 22, 2016, 05:49:45 AM »
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1) When I founded a religion, people would join but not follow "holy edicts" so I'd excommunicate them. But nothing actually happens.
This is something I too have struggled with religion. On one hand, you are trying to expand and gather new members, and I'm more interested in OOC atmosphere/community than theological roleplay correctness, but on the other hand, enforcing the actual ideas you're trying to promote and being seen as fanatical for trying to be follow through on convictions.

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There should be a large drop in honor/prestige & maybe affects on your region if you are thrown out of the church.
Added to my religious list. One day I'd like to make religious required to join on character creation and immigration, but there are other changes that much be done first. Once those occur, this would be an excellent complement.

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2) Churches have their own hierarchy in real life. Why not match that with parishes, etc. that collect gold from the temples/peasants, so that you can increase your influence by getting more believers. Also perhaps some prestige bonuses in there as well, would be natural.
These, very roughly speaking, are those first changes required.

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A few fame points might even be possible, I'd think - x thousand peasants under your benevolent wing
More changing the existing founding-religion fame to be more accessible to any priest and discourage religions being founded just to collect fame, and being dead meaningless shells.

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3) A little far-out from how we actually play, but: make Gods "real". Like the Ancient Greeks, make the Gods actually influence things in the game.
I've been thinking of endorsing existing religious roleplay with Portal or other GM events.

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Maybe Gods overall believers can be translated into some sort of strength score & they can influence the outcome of battles, or you can sacrifice to them to increase your performance; maybe they will help guide an assassin's hand...
Well, there is the Visit Temples feature that is affected by existing temples and which we could base some improvements on. And I do have regional buffs affected by religion in a branch I'll finish testing and send live sometime. But generally speaking, we're going to quickly hit the wall of Volunteer Time for as many good ideas as we can generate.
 
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4) get rid of the rule where a religion dies when its last temple is destroyed. It should die naturally when no more temples & no more priests who might restart it with a new conversion of a lord, or building a new temple
This one I disagree on. For what its worth, the vast majority of religions are not destroyed by the last temple. They are destroyed by a priest elder character pausing and the religion collapsing before any others can step in. In the case of the last temple being destroyed, which I only know from recent experience of Sorachism being closed on the South Island, it gives 4 turns before its closed, in which a lord can build a new temple. In the case of no priest elders, as many turns as the highest level temple.

If a religion cannot sustain interest in itself to survive, it should not survive. I think we err on the side of too many religions, too many indian chiefs with their Awesome Theological Roleplay, and result in too many boring one priest religions that die; EC especially, other continents not so much. Religions should not be as small and numerous as realms. And yet at the same time, people fear secessions and want large realms with distant marches to war (if war). Bah.

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I think Religions should not be given mechanic powers. SA was plenty powerful through influence alone with very few religion specific mechanics. In fact it got so powerful that things began to grow boring on Dwilight outside and inside the SA bloc until the ESA split.
We're well aware of the concerns of balance. I'm generally thinking of residual religious effects more than individual mechanical powers. But we do need to cleanup, fix, and tweak the existing mechanics that priests have. Religion should still be primarily an influence role, but there should be some mechanic shoreup to encourage religion being more important in a nobleman's life, not just his realm.

Noone you know

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #4: May 22, 2016, 10:56:56 AM »
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But generally speaking, we're going to quickly hit the wall of Volunteer Time for as many good ideas as we can generate.

Yes, well that's the Battlemaster way though, isn't it? Talk and talk about needing help, but when it's offered, let it sit there until it gets bored and wanders off.

A week ago Friday I started an email chain with Tom, volunteering to re-write the Battle Engine over the weekend so I could also use it for a small spin-off I thought might help increase interest. After 5 emails of back and forth about whether I could actually do it, he wandered off not to be heard from again.

You COULD be testing a brand new, clean battle engine ready for all your new War Package ideas to be added to. There are people who do this for a living for whom refactoring the battle engine is the matter of a weekend, the same with all of this religion code you'd like or most of your other ideas. Instead, the same old thing will still be here years from now.

It's not a time issue, it's a matter of getting serious and following up on things.


So..back to religion as a solution to all our problems...

Wimpie

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #5: May 22, 2016, 12:09:01 PM »
Just popping in to say religion may get a boost. It's sledom used in a good way and successfully (looking at SA and ESA and stuff).

People generally don't want to make time for religion, looking at BT for this. And most of the time it highly depends on the leader's creativity to keep things running or create a nice religious background (which I certainly lack the creativity for).

So apart from actual mechanic changes that were proposed here (like Vita's 'forcing' people to choose at least one religion when they start, something I would want to see in effect some day), it still depends on the characters really putting their time in it.

Just my 2 cents.
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Anaris

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #6: May 22, 2016, 03:08:50 PM »
A week ago Friday I started an email chain with Tom, volunteering to re-write the Battle Engine over the weekend so I could also use it for a small spin-off I thought might help increase interest. After 5 emails of back and forth about whether I could actually do it, he wandered off not to be heard from again.

You COULD be testing a brand new, clean battle engine ready for all your new War Package ideas to be added to. There are people who do this for a living for whom refactoring the battle engine is the matter of a weekend, the same with all of this religion code you'd like or most of your other ideas. Instead, the same old thing will still be here years from now.

Which is all well and good, but without coordinating with the dev team, you'd most likely end up creating something that no one but you actually wants.

We have a list of specific things to change when we rewrite the combat script that's as long as my arm. Would you have even asked what we wanted? Or just decided, again, that you know better than the dev team, and done what you wanted?

You have been asked, time and again, to stop being insulting, arrogant, and condescending toward the dev team. If you make one more post like this, you will be temporarily banned from posting on the forum.
Timothy Collett

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #7: May 23, 2016, 08:30:38 AM »
You're prolly right - the dev team wouldn't have any interest in a cleanly refactored version of the code that did the EXACT SAME THING but had tests, was cleaned of existing bugs, and could be easily be expanded to bring in new features.

Silly me.

What, is it 5 warnings limit now? I thought it was 6.

I think it's pretty sad that you constantly warn and threaten people for saying that they don't think you're doing a good job. You should think about that. You've decided to make yourself answerable to no one, allowed to screw up as badly as you want to without anyone being allowed to complain about you. That's not a good policy. Criticism is what keeps us honest.

Here's an interesting factoid:

Say, for example, that you were someone with "a little bit of perl experience" and you worked on php coding 1 hour per day, every single day, for 7 years.

You would have the equivalence of 63 full-time weeks of experience.

That's  the same as a new programmer with 1 year, 3 months experience.

In other words, a very, very junior level programmer.

So why don't you  - for one !@#$ing time in your life - stop thinking you know everything & listen to people who can actually make your coding and the game experience more pleasurable for everyone involved?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 08:41:49 AM by Noone you know »

Constantine

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #8: May 23, 2016, 10:19:32 AM »
It's a pity you've got this asshat attitude. Otherwise you could perhaps actually be helpful.

GundamMerc

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #9: May 24, 2016, 12:02:24 AM »
It's a pity you've got this asshat attitude. Otherwise you could perhaps actually be helpful.

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #10: May 24, 2016, 03:54:32 AM »

3) A little far-out from how we actually play, but: make Gods "real". Like the Ancient Greeks, make the Gods actually influence things in the game. Maybe Gods overall believers can be translated into some sort of strength score & they can influence the outcome of battles, or you can sacrifice to them to increase your performance; maybe they will help guide an assassin's hand...

I know we don't want to go too far down that road with mechanics, but maybe there are some ideas that can come of that.


The  GM's actually did that with the RP in Arnor recently.  Currently there is a new mythos developing about the Storm Maid within the Storm Lands.  It seemed no coincidence when a Maelstrom was described as descending from the sky to remove the daimonkin from the lands of Arnor.   Great work by whoever did it...

Vita`

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Re: Ideas to make Religion mean something
« Reply #11: May 24, 2016, 05:45:30 AM »
The funny thing is...it was coincidence by Anaris. But I liked the coincidence.