Are you kidding me Morek?

[Anaris]

Ah, religion, I'm tempted to do one, but at the same time, I wish I had a second character to do it with. A monster/undead worshipping one in Westgard just seems so fitting.

If you want to make a religion, don't do it until you have at least a half-dozen people committed to joining and being active in it. Otherwise it will end up as just another tiny, pointless also-ran.

[Vita`]

My thoughts exactly. You can't just join the religion and make it alive because church leaders are often the ones who do the least RP-wise but will actively stomp you down as a threat to their authority when you try to do something.

I guess I was just saying 'we can only try', rather than give up entirely.

Yes, some players might be like that (although isn't atheism explicitly not allowed on BM?)

Yeah, but I think more in the sense of anyone claiming to be an atheist is seen as crazy as some advy claiming he is the King of Sirion and the Prime Minister of the Democracy of Xavax. Tom's Words

In my defence, being the one who actually destroyed defunct temples in Madina, my goal was exactly to make religious leaders do something.

Well, it did achieve that. My character was defensive of astroism-in-general, even though it was an SA, not ESA temple destroyed. And I recall our characters had some dialogue at the time. And I think that Seoras speaking up about the temple closure in Madina Gardens may have contributed to either the creation or expansion of the Interfaith Council, a guild dedicated to maintaining relationships between astroist churches.

An SA temple in a realm where there are no SA priests or laymen is not something that adds to the game. It's not active proselytizing by any means. I specifically called SA to send a priest to preach in Madina and promised to rebuild temples if that happens. But there was no reaction. In hindsight I realize my plan wasn't very good but I can't even say I regret what I did because it made exactly zero impact on anything in the end.

The thing is, its really difficult to always have priests and laymen in a realm. Take ESA and Swordfell for instance. Our first non-lurian priest (and elder) was in Swordfell. Built a temple. Then he left when he got some minimal flak and founded Trinitism on EC. We had no members in Luria. Sometime later, we did gain a member or two. Then they disappeared for various reasons. Then another, disappared etc. Then someone closes the temple. Then another member joins Swordfell, having to travel to another realm just to find a temple, and delaying for several weeks because of the inconvenience. But having a temple in a realm allows anyone who is in the region to send a message to elders and to join the religion to check it out. Which they might not even know exists if the temple hadn't been there and they were a particularly lightweight player. As I remember, when my character discussed ESA with your character after you closed the SA temple, you required a priest to be a member of the realm, which wasn't possible unless I changed realms, even though I had been willing to come visit personally. And as the only priest (or one of two, or one of three), trying to proselytize foreigners. There's a lot of travel. One cannot be all places at once and takes time to meet up with everyone. Oh, how a priest dreams of a bundle of teleportation scrolls!

If you reached out to SA and they ignored you, good (well, not good, but good on you making the effort). Even moreso, if you made more than one attempt before closure. My point was mostly directed at closing temples with no previous interaction more than trying to get a religion to interact with others. In addition to also pointing out that its really difficult to get members to join if they have to travel far away to join a temple. And depressing after one does put effort into it. But if a religion, or guild, refuses to respond, I think its perfectly fair to remove their institutions to no longer provide a temptation to others to join a dead institution. I have advocated this ICly against another advy guild for precisely the same reason of contacting their elders several times with not a single reply.

Madina is not isolationist when it comes to religion either. Every priest can preach freely and no religions are banned.

I think last time I visited, I was asked to leave because only priests of the realm were allowed to preach in Madina.

It's rather isolated than isolationist, no one just comes to visit.

My character visited at least twice, if not more. Madina was actually where I spent several months paused, roleplaying it as being in deep meditation; now he's paused/in-deep-meditation within Port Nebel. Also, Madina actively sought to avoid being networked into an international advy guild to create its own realm-centric isolationist advy group.

That sounds really terrible. Seeing how religions tend to die de facto but go on de jure we'd just end up with 4 defunct but undying religions no one cares about every time.

No, because everyone would be in one of those four religions, communicating with each other, and creating bonds and conflict with different characters.

I was a member of a fairly large religion on Atamara and communication was pretty much limited to three high-ranking characters continuously telling me to know my place as an acolyte. Needless to say there was no chance of being elevated in rank either. It's not as simple as you present it to be.

The Order? Worse than SA in political corruption. Specifically founded when religions were created to provide the religious half of CE's control. I was actually around for this...there was a General Tsubaki Sanjuro of CE, awesome general, who founded the Order of Ered Luin in Tarasac as a non-partial guild. Around the same time, Tomism happened in Norland (the first test religion shortly before religions were implemented in BM). So Tsubaki and my character were cooperating to create a religious counterpart for the guild. I created a second character for this, was building up the roleplay (Naicotoism on the wiki, if you're curious) etc. Then Tsubaki went inactive and my second char did not get the lordship. Religions were implemented and almost immediately, a long-time CE family (ruler when I had joined) founded The Order (from Order of Ered Luin) with no previous mention to the realm, ignoring the '-ism' recommended religion name, and proceeded to use it as a political tool of CE. I have long thought that religions should be more similar to realms in terms of governance and that something similar (but not the same) as the protest or rebel mechanics should be available. But that requires a large revamp in religions first...

Also, sorry, I made some minor edits on my previous reply, before you quoted me.

[Gabanus family]

I actually think that that interfaith council is becoming more useless as more idiotic fanatics of ESA started burning down SA temples and stuff and SA will prob return the favor (although they've been doing it for a while now).

But frankly, with Oligarch at a pickle I simply don't have enough time to jump in and go full faith and with Seoras gone...I think ESA is at a troubling spot atm.

[Vita`]

Yeah, it seems that a lot of what ESA has stood for is being championed by the newest members of SA, combined with those who pushed ESA the hardest (Seoras, Goriad, Idesbald) stepping back for various OOC reasons. It's unfortunate, but I know I gave a good effort. I don't think it'll die (at least from internal collapse, it could die from external war) as we did expand it wide enough, but I agree its in a troubling spot. I'd hate for it to be seen as purely-war-oriented with the fanatics, but at the same time, Dwilight does need more war, not less. It's just that ESA has always followed orthodox Mathurin teachings where SA followed each time's whims, so I'd hate to now lose that focus on balance between war and peace each having their time and place because SA uses the more pro-war attitude and ESA defending against SA closing its temples and doing nothing for OOC months/IC years to wage an anti-ESA war and go back to their alliance-happy peace federation boring players away from the game once the 'threat' is over.

[Constantine]

But having a temple in a realm allows anyone who is in the region to send a message to elders and to join the religion to check it out.

Oh, I get that. There is still one tiny SA temple in Madina exactly for that reason. But I'm willing to bet it has seen zero action for years.

As I remember, when my character discussed ESA with your character after you closed the SA temple, you required a priest to be a member of the realm, which wasn't possible unless I changed realms, even though I had been willing to come visit personally.

Fair enough, I think that was my biggest mistake at the time.

On the other hand I do understand why kings are not so willing to allow foreign priests preach in their lands. Wasn't it your character who arrived to a foreign realm and ousted a lord from his very own city? Large religion is a power that can really get out of hand and if you're pondering over joining one you have to at least make sure you have some priests committed to your realm too, not all coming from other realms where they occupy important secular offices to boot. That would be just like giving a weapon against you to a foreign realm without getting anything back.

[DeVerci]

Ah, religion, I'm tempted to do one, but at the same time, I wish I had a second character to do it with. A monster/undead worshipping one in Westgard just seems so fitting.

Actually a zealot religious sect set on bringing new light and exterminating monsters would be more fitting. We do kinda of a theme with that, the "Lightbearer" army, the duchy of "The Light in the West", before it was duchy of the "Eternal Lightbringer". The west is dark and full of monsters afterall.

[Vita`]

Wasn't it your character who arrived to a foreign realm and ousted a lord from his very own city?

I do not *think* Seoras ever did that, but it wouldn't be something he would *never* do, just not something done without good justification. Perhaps you remember some more details?

EDIT: I just remembered Seoras removing a lord from their city. It was the capital of Luria Boreal, a theocracy of ESA, with a lord who had just threatened to destroy the ESA temple (he later did destroy), after having gone Mad/Imbalanced, banned the Bishop of Luria Boreal from the theocratic realm, and made many heretical statements. Even promoted the idea that the rulers of a theocracy should be above the priests, which was against one of the earliest ESA ideas. I think it qualifies under good justification. Seoras hadn't traveled to the realm to even do it, Seoras had informed that very lord he was visiting soon, and arrived under independent cause, coincidentally finding himself in the region just as all this went down. Is that the incident you remember?

Large religion is a power that can really get out of hand and if you're pondering over joining one you have to at least make sure you have some priests committed to your realm too

I agree. From the beginning, and still, ESA has held that the highest-ranked (ruler > royal > duke > councillor > lord > marshal iirc) priest in a realm should be a Bishop, the lowest-ranked elder position in ESA. Bishop is basically responsible for the faith within their realm, providing virtuous counsel to their realm, nurturing the faith's growth and protecting it from attacks etc. I had witnessed how having rulers of each realm subverted SA into being a pawn of the ruler's interests. So I wanted to bring the focus to the priesthood ruling, yet at the same time a priesthood without title was powerless. So the priority was made priesthood first, secular rank second, but using secular rank to incentive having influence within the realm without (hopefully) being tied to the realm's secular interests.

I think religious power should be used, but it must be done carefully, and not for any realm's benefit. The way I approach it is by trying to focus on promoting certain virtues or traits and rewarding them (such as expanding Morek's temple after Morek defeated my realm in a war) for fulfilling such, and only using religious power against individuals condemned as being particularly Anti-Virtuous. For instance, protesting a ruler out who has not and will not communicate with anyone, for Silence is Sin. Or removing someone as lord with auto da fe because in over 3 weeks, they have never setup estates despite being asked nicely several times.

[Vita`]

Actually a zealot religious sect set on bringing new light and exterminating monsters would be more fitting. We do kinda of a theme with that, the "Lightbearer" army, the duchy of "The Light in the West", before it was duchy of the "Eternal Lightbringer". The west is dark and full of monsters afterall.

ESA has held since the Freeze that the monsters come to challenge us as they challenged the early astroists, because humanity choked their lands in peace for far too long that the monsters surged forth to spill blood where humans won't.

I think the Order of the Storm Maid has also been using a couple Portal events to proclaim they have divine support against daimons, undead, monsters etc.

SA I think more simply blames Jonsu for the monsters, but still holds a generic monsters are evil idea that most anyone holds against rogues.

You can join any of those and build on what already exists with far more reach than starting another new church.

[Constantine]

Is that the incident you remember?

Yep. It was just an example off the top of my head. I'm not saying it was a bad thing to do, on the contrary, I thought it was pretty cool for I didn't even know priests could do that. I just brought it up to illustrate why realms might be scared to get entangled with big religions with HQ in a potentially hostile realm and no priestly representation in their own.

I think religious power should be used, but it must be done carefully, and not for any realm's benefit. The way I approach it is by trying to focus on promoting certain virtues or traits and rewarding them

Which is great but does not prevent ESA from going bonkers after you leave. You can't prevent people from using religions for political gains so there will always be some circumspection.

[Vita`]

No differently than how one can change how a realm warps after one departs. Oh, Melhed, what happened to thee after I left! Such is time...

I'd also note that I have been very careful in who is chosen as Light of the Church, the three priests considered rulers of the Church and highest rank besides Seoras, for both that reason and astroist-flavor reasons. So far, my character appointed one character, Cuvelier family, to Light because I knew I could trust them to carry on my vision of how I see religion. And he's done it well, when he has had time for it, seeking Balance between the both the priests who must lead the Church and the warrior-heroes who are most-praised for their sacrifice. Both are necessary and vital. And I've made it clear that selection into Lights is a very distinct role that is seen along the level of how rulers used to be played with an OOC care to the enjoyment of their realm and island.

[Constantine]

The main difference here is that you can oust a bad king and start anew but can never topple church leadership.

[Vita`]

And I agree that that needs changed. I would even consider it approved for change. Unfortunately, the motivation to Tackle All The Tasks has been lacking within me, delvin's been busy, and Wimpie keeps busy with smaller bugs, so we're back to limited volunteer effort.

[Skirting boards]

Personally I think it'd be interesting if we started a new theocracy realm on DWI. One that is located in the west and worships the daimons and is allied with the Zuma Coalition and is in direct conflict with SA and ESA.

I mean we've already witnessed the power of the daimons on DWI when Haktoo (Haktu?) took Aletha Kabrinski. It wouldnt be very far fetched for some nobles to interpret this as some sort of divine action.

In exchance for worshipping the daimons, Haktu allows us cities and regions in the West, an alliance with the Zuma, and some but not perfect protection against the monsters and undead.

This would allow the realm to directly challenge other human realms while not worrying as much about rogue forces.

[Vita`]

There were some Zuma messages a month or two ago, but I'd venture a guess that wasn't shared to Morek.

[DeVerci]

The only Zuma messages we got was "There are too many monsters for all of us", and then silence.