Author Topic: Command Staff Settings  (Read 8762 times)

Fleugs

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Command Staff Settings
« Topic Start: June 25, 2011, 10:19:35 PM »
Being rather absent from the strategic/tactical part of Battlemaster in the entire time I played, I decided about a year ago that it was time for me to learn the basics: battles. I've been made marshal, but mostly vice marshal, left and right and up until now things were pretty easy and straightforward. The fact that I was made marshal with more "inexperienced" characters may explain why I wasn't confused.

Then, a few days ago, I was made marshal with my character Immanuel. If I'm not mistaken, that character has over 90% leadership: basically, it has been my primary battle character, given it has been in Ibladesh and was there when the tipping point in the war against Itorunt came. Apparently high leadership enables a great amount of special command settings that I haven't seen much before (except for one). Thus, I could use some help/tips on which ones do what etc. I'll give a list

  • Infantry Charge
    Cavalry Charge
    Archer Opening
    Soften & Charge
    Attacking in Waves
    Careful Attack
    Weakening Skirmish
  • Infantry Wall
    Fortification Deploy
    Mixed Lines
    Delay and wound
    They Shall Not Pass (funfact: I saw Caligus use this once, and their army got massacred for minimal losses on the other side. Must be worst tactic ever)
    Strategic Retreat

I was wondering if someone could explain me more about these tactics. How do they line up specific unit types, what do they do, and in which situation are they beneficial? Next to that: does the % of leadership influence the effectiveness of the used tactic?

I'll be collecting answers here and will eventually try to make it part of some tutorial, useful for mentors (maybe "advanced battlemaster").

Thanks for your help in advance!
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MaleMaldives

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #1: June 25, 2011, 10:33:58 PM »
The wiki on it seems to have improved from last time I checked.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Formation

In my experience the mos basic ones work the best.

Delay and Wound is supposed to be used when you know you will lost the battle, but still try to inflict a lot of casualties. I tried it once, and now sure how well it worked because it is hard to compare with other formations. I wouldn't say it failed though.

Chenier

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #2: June 26, 2011, 06:28:16 AM »
The wiki on it seems to have improved from last time I checked.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Formation

In my experience the mos basic ones work the best.

Delay and Wound is supposed to be used when you know you will lost the battle, but still try to inflict a lot of casualties. I tried it once, and now sure how well it worked because it is hard to compare with other formations. I wouldn't say it failed though.

I've tried it. It is absolutely awful. It turned a certain defeat into the buttrape of the century. Avoid it as you would avoid a rabid monkey with AIDS.

Most advanced formations are awful. I just await for the day this system is completely replaced by a customizable one.
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Anaris

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #3: June 26, 2011, 02:36:28 PM »
Delay and Wound should be removed. It exploited the weakness in the old combat system that was fixed by moving to the new one.
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egamma

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #4: June 26, 2011, 08:57:00 PM »
Has anyone actually used waves, careful attack, or weakening skirmish?

Chenier

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #5: June 26, 2011, 09:19:45 PM »
Has anyone actually used waves, careful attack, or weakening skirmish?

All bad.
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Indirik

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #6: June 27, 2011, 03:23:57 PM »
Waaaaay back when, when I was in KoA and fighting Irombrozia, they pulled off a perfect formation against us that turned what should have been a certain defeat for them into a very good victory.  I can't remember if it was Delay and Wound or TSNP... The best part was they didn't have a marshal in the battle, so they did it with manual line settings. Worked perfectly. But, as Anaris said, those formations exploit weaknesses in the old combat system that simply won't work anymore.

So far as I can really tell, there are only two valid battle settings now:
* If you have infantry superiority, then swarm them as fast as you can. (Infantry charge/infantry wall)
* If you have archer superiority, then start your infantry farther back to give your archers time to pound the enemy before your infantry engages. (Archer opening)
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Vaylon Kenadell

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #7: June 27, 2011, 07:01:14 PM »
In my opinion, Archer Opening does not give archers enough time to thin the enemy's ranks. Has anyone had any luck with Soften and Charge?

I ask because my marshal does not have enough leadership yet.

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #8: June 27, 2011, 07:02:41 PM »
Maybe I should just conduct some... (gasp)... actual tests on the combat system and answer all these questions. :P
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Indirik

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #9: June 27, 2011, 10:19:53 PM »
In my opinion, Archer Opening does not give archers enough time to thin the enemy's ranks.

One extra round over Infantry charge.

Problem is, you have to watch out for the enemy starting Front while you have your archers on Front. That means your archers are attacked in melee on Round 2. If you start your Infantry on Back, then the battle lines meet.... on the attacker's Front, right where the archers are. You get two shots, tops. That's assuming that on Round 2, your archers don't run away because there's no infantry screen. You could start your archers on Middle, but that's Range 3 to the enemy's front, meaning some of your archers may move closer to get better shots, and not shoot anyway.

Start your infantry on Rearguard, and your archers will get shredded before you can get there to defend them. Or, again, your archers back up instead of shooting. And you still don't get many shots in.

Anyway, Anaris is working up some changes to archer behavior that will change some of this stuff. Not sure when it goes live. He'll announce it when it happens. I think you'll like it. :D
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MaleMaldives

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #10: June 28, 2011, 12:45:57 AM »
If you have a big archer army then archers in middle and infantry in the back can be good.

Chenier

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #11: June 28, 2011, 02:04:23 AM »
One extra round over Infantry charge.

Problem is, you have to watch out for the enemy starting Front while you have your archers on Front. That means your archers are attacked in melee on Round 2. If you start your Infantry on Back, then the battle lines meet.... on the attacker's Front, right where the archers are. You get two shots, tops. That's assuming that on Round 2, your archers don't run away because there's no infantry screen. You could start your archers on Middle, but that's Range 3 to the enemy's front, meaning some of your archers may move closer to get better shots, and not shoot anyway.

Start your infantry on Rearguard, and your archers will get shredded before you can get there to defend them. Or, again, your archers back up instead of shooting. And you still don't get many shots in.

Anyway, Anaris is working up some changes to archer behavior that will change some of this stuff. Not sure when it goes live. He'll announce it when it happens. I think you'll like it. :D

I do find that there should be more space between both sides' front rows. :P
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Solari

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #12: June 28, 2011, 01:57:32 PM »
One extra round over Infantry charge.

Problem is, you have to watch out for the enemy starting Front while you have your archers on Front. That means your archers are attacked in melee on Round 2. If you start your Infantry on Back, then the battle lines meet.... on the attacker's Front, right where the archers are. You get two shots, tops. That's assuming that on Round 2, your archers don't run away because there's no infantry screen. You could start your archers on Middle, but that's Range 3 to the enemy's front, meaning some of your archers may move closer to get better shots, and not shoot anyway.  Start your infantry on Rearguard, and your archers will get shredded before you can get there to defend them. Or, again, your archers back up instead of shooting. And you still don't get many shots in.

This basically sounds like an endorsement for no formations at all, and everyone lined up in rearguard and back.  Surely the combat system isn't /that/ bad.

Indirik

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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #13: June 28, 2011, 02:20:16 PM »
This basically sounds like an endorsement for no formations at all, and everyone lined up in rearguard and back.  Surely the combat system isn't /that/ bad.
See my previous comment:

So far as I can really tell, there are only two valid battle settings now:
* If you have infantry superiority, then swarm them as fast as you can. (Infantry charge/infantry wall)
* If you have archer superiority, then start your infantry farther back to give your archers time to pound the enemy before your infantry engages. (Archer opening)
So, yeah, I am kind of endorsing a limited set of formations. But there are two formations in that set, not just one. :P

I would assume that the issue is at least partly because all the formations were created with the old battle system in mind. As such, they make use of the overcrowding and overkill mechanics that simply don't apply anymore. (Well, OK, overkill might still apply, but probably at orders of magnitude less than it used to happen.) You can't do things like toss a sacrificial 20-man infantry unit out front to stop the 2,000 enemy infantry dead in their tracks for four rounds, while simultaneously spoiling the 300-horse cavalry charge.

The new battle system avoids these ridiculously illogical behaviors. That's great. It prevents lots of immersion-breaking, mechanics-exploiting behaviors. (Especially in relation to fortification sieges, where single-unit suicide dives became the norm.) But it seems to also have greatly reduced the need for, and effect of, formations. People with lots of infantry will want to get as much of that infantry in play as quickly as possible. i.e.: Infantry in front. People with lots of archers will want to keep the infantry out of combat for as long as possible, so the archers can get off as many rounds of fire as possible: Archers middle, infantry back.

If you want to custom create more battle formations you think might work, then please do so. But I would imagine that any complex formation would almost certainly be very special-purpose, and probably not suitable for general use. But the preset formations are intended to be general-use. The highly abstracted, 2D combat system kind of limits what you can do with formations. You're really only picking how far forward or back your troops start. That's not really a "formation", it's just controlling how far you are from the enemy when the firing starts.

Now that I think about it, that part of the battle system really doesn't make much sense, either. It almost seems as if the battles should always start with the enemy X rows away, where X is no less than the longest-ranged archer unit on the field. Your range 4 archer units are not going to not fire at an enemy 4 ranks away just because they're told to line up in the middle, and the enemy infantry is setting up formation in the front. I mean, are they just going to sit there and watch the enemy get into formation, and not start shooting until they're ready to be shot at?
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Re: Command Staff Settings
« Reply #14: June 28, 2011, 02:22:49 PM »
Interesting idea. Let's try that out. Of course that would mean your cavalry would usually enter the melee first, followed by infantry. And your ranged units might not fire off even one volley.