Rework the Republic Government type

[Gabanus family]

Instead of it being a current duchy, would it be possible to make it so anyone in the realm can protest dukes? After all, if the issue is with one duke with only a few knights who support him in his duchy, making it so only the duchy can protest really does nothing.

With all due respect, if that version is implemented I am going to quite playing alltogether.

In my opinion the royal duke problem should be handled on the royal part. Have them banned still, which forces them to form their own realm creating more tension.

Protesting people out typically removes tension within a realm, we should strive towards more tension, not less.

Also this whole "duke protested out" think will just screw over smaller realms even more than ever before now that every position can easily be taken by a small group, or leave a situation where anyone who becomes Duke is protested out emediately, as with a government, effectively just destroying the realm.

[GundamMerc]

With all due respect, if that version is implemented I am going to quite playing alltogether.

In my opinion the royal duke problem should be handled on the royal part. Have them banned still, which forces them to form their own realm creating more tension.

Protesting people out typically removes tension within a realm, we should strive towards more tension, not less.

Also this whole "duke protested out" think will just screw over smaller realms even more than ever before now that every position can easily be taken by a small group, or leave a situation where anyone who becomes Duke is protested out emediately, as with a government, effectively just destroying the realm.

Small realms by region total or noble population? If by noble population, I don't see how it's a big deal if a small group can takeover the realm. You say you want tension, but then say you don't want a small group being able to go against the grain. Choose one. Besides, the smaller the realm, the more significant that a small group becomes in the first place. In fact, increasing the amount of people that can protest to the entire realm actually prevents that small group from having its way more than having it only be duchy-wide, because a smart group will just join a single duchy so that they have a critical mass of protests, whereas if its the entire realm their voice is diluted.

So please, think it through in your head. Besides, dukeships were never meant to be unprotestable. That just happened because of a lack of time on the volunteer side.

[Gabanus family]

Small realms by region total or noble population? If by noble population, I don't see how it's a big deal if a small group can takeover the realm. You say you want tension, but then say you don't want a small group being able to go against the grain. Choose one. Besides, the smaller the realm, the more significant that a small group becomes in the first place. In fact, increasing the amount of people that can protest to the entire realm actually prevents that small group from having its way more than having it only be duchy-wide, because a smart group will just join a single duchy so that they have a critical mass of protests, whereas if its the entire realm their voice is diluted.

So please, think it through in your head. Besides, dukeships were never meant to be unprotestable. That just happened because of a lack of time on the volunteer side.

Well to begin with, I'm against this whole idea in the first place. If the unbannable royal status is removed there are more than enough options to go against the grain already so I don't see the point of protesting against Dukes. If you can ban him, that should be enough. If you're unwilling to do this because you'll loose a city and you have to get it back, well that's kinda normal now isn't it?

If anything like this is implemented, then I expect at the same time there comes a method for Dukes/Lords to go against it. This should mean that they get the option to ban nobles from their Duchy, so the nobles can't just swarm in and take an estate, but a Duke/Lord can actually kick them out and refuse them access of ever taking an estate in that Duchy. Otherwise we'll just go from one abused case to another which will not do well for the game I fear.

And we have seen situations where you have 3 nobles vs 3 who just ransak/destroy the realm alltogether, that's what I meant. I can't believe that was the purpose of any of these introductions, but it's more a side-note. The above is by far my main point.

[Vita`]

Instead of it being a current duchy, would it be possible to make it so anyone in the realm can protest dukes? After all, if the issue is with one duke with only a few knights who support him in his duchy, making it so only the duchy can protest really does nothing.

If a duchy supports their duke, they should not be removable. Just like if a realm supports their ruler/government-officials, they should not be removable.

I also agree that ROyals and DUkes should be strong, but why in a Republic, does the royal thing even apply? It's a republic, not a monarchy.

Because its not a modern republic, but a medieval republic.

[Vita`]

If your realm is around 3-5 nobles or less, its going to be very vulnerable to new nobles and their ideas. But isn't that good, to help liven up the realm that is evidently underpopulated? Realms that small are just not sustainable.

Be more careful who you choose and keep as rulers. I don't foresee royalty protection changing. Though I do find the title of 'Royal' to be weird and awkward and would prefer 'Prince', but then it might not be so clear as to the royal connection. 'Royal Prince'? Anyway, tangential discussion...

If anything like this is implemented, then I expect at the same time there comes a method for Dukes/Lords to go against it...

No no no, the whole point is that dukes have been overpowered for years. We're not going to introduce a way to rebalance them and then unbalance it in their favor again. Dukes, like rulers, need to work with their duchies/realms. The duke controls the lord's appointments (except with new duke, but power-struggle between new duke and old lords would be understandable and i dont think we should prevent that, and with the exception of government system elections, but again duke-ruler power struggle potential). The lords can kick knights from the estate/duchy. So if the duke works with his lords, he can protect himself from anyone grabbing estates to protest.

[Gabanus family]

If your realm is around 3-5 nobles or less, its going to be very vulnerable to new nobles and their ideas. But isn't that good, to help liven up the realm that is evidently underpopulated? Realms that small are just not sustainable.

Be more careful who you choose and keep as rulers. I don't foresee royalty protection changing. Though I do find the title of 'Royal' to be weird and awkward and would prefer 'Prince', but then it might not be so clear as to the royal connection. 'Royal Prince'? Anyway, tangential discussion...
No no no, the whole point is that dukes have been overpowered for years. We're not going to introduce a way to rebalance them and then unbalance it in their favor again. Dukes, like rulers, need to work with their duchies/realms. The duke controls the lord's appointments (except with new duke, but power-struggle between new duke and old lords would be understandable and i dont think we should prevent that, and with the exception of government system elections, but again duke-ruler power struggle potential). The lords can kick knights from the estate/duchy. So if the duke works with his lords, he can protect himself from anyone grabbing estates to protest.

First of all, new Dukes can't choose the Lords in their Duchy, so then give them the option of removing them from their own Duchy to avoid abuse. Then you end up with a Duke with 1 region, weakening him further and giving room for another Duke to gain power and momentum.

Same with knights, Lords can't ban them from taking estates, so this is super rediculous as a group can take over a Duchy then. The ruler just has to make sure that all his knights etc take an estate in the 'rebel Duke's region and then protest him out.

Again, I see way too many ways this is going to be abused and am completely against it the way it's suggested and the way it stands now.

[Vita`]

First of all, new Dukes can't choose the Lords in their Duchy...

As I wrote above, " (except with new duke, but power-struggle between new duke and old lords would be understandable and i dont think we should prevent that..."

Same with knights, Lords can't ban them from taking estates, so this is super rediculous as a group can take over a Duchy then.

Why would you want to ban people from taking estates? Thats how they join your realm/duchy! But, lords *can* kick out troublesome knights from estate.

The ruler just has to make sure that all his knights etc take an estate in the 'rebel Duke's region and then protest him out.

You don't think we'd include the same restriction on protesting government members, that a protestor must be a member of the realm for 5 days before they can protest, for protesting dukes as well?

[Constantine]

I don't see how that follows.

If people could counter-protest to protect their friends, then yes, that would make sense, but if a clique takes control of a realm, and it's large enough that the rest of the realm can't protest them out or rebel...then they own that realm fair and square. (Or as fair and square as such things ever are.)

Let me offer some real examples.
Let's say I am a part of not as much a clique but a circle of old like-minded characters. Let's say a new noble appears in the realm and somehow manages to get an important title. Eventually we realize he is not ideologically close to us at all. In fact he is our opponent and might potentially be a problem for our reign. As a player I would absolutely hate it we could just throw him out of every position by spam-protests. We'll completely own the realm fair and square... and where's the fun in that?
Another example: Let's say I was recently appointed a Duke and I've noticed many nobles in my Duchy are not participating in wars, refuse to do courtier work and just sit in the capital, accumulating gold and probably sending it back to their families or spending it on training skills. What do you think will happen when I start decreasing these nobles' estate size? That's right, I get protested out by mule characters.
No, the whole idea is a disaster.

[Bronnen]

That's kind of why I was suggesting it be changed to a vote. Protests can  happen with very few people simply doing it over and over until the person is forced down, a vote would require the majority of the realm to agree.

[GundamMerc]

Let me offer some real examples.
Let's say I am a part of not as much a clique but a circle of old like-minded characters. Let's say a new noble appears in the realm and somehow manages to get an important title. Eventually we realize he is not ideologically close to us at all. In fact he is our opponent and might potentially be a problem for our reign. As a player I would absolutely hate it we could just throw him out of every position by spam-protests. We'll completely own the realm fair and square... and where's the fun in that?
Another example: Let's say I was recently appointed a Duke and I've noticed many nobles in my Duchy are not participating in wars, refuse to do courtier work and just sit in the capital, accumulating gold and probably sending it back to their families or spending it on training skills. What do you think will happen when I start decreasing these nobles' estate size? That's right, I get protested out by mule characters.
No, the whole idea is a disaster.

Amazing as it sounds for me to admit this considering our complete disagreement in other matters, I'm coming to see things from Constantine's point of view. This, while having noble intentions, probably won't combat Dukes very well. Could we consider giving rulers the right to remove Dukes from their positions (not a ban, just position removal, so this side-steps the royal issue), but with a time-delay to give the dukes a chance to secede? This would allow rulers to be get rid of dukes who are inactive and not contributing, as even if they get back on in time to secede, people likely wouldn't follow them. For dukes who are active, it would create conflict that would possibly cause a large, powerful realm to fall into civil war naturally along the lines of ducal/realm loyalties. Surrounding realms could take sides or even make blatant land grabs.

[Vita`]

That's kind of why I was suggesting it be changed to a vote. Protests can  happen with very few people simply doing it over and over until the person is forced down, a vote would require the majority of the realm to agree.

Some government styles, I think democracies and republics, give the judge a button to start a referendum Vote of No Confidence if there's been enough protests of a government member. Then it is voted upon.

[Anaris]

Let's say a new noble appears in the realm and somehow manages to get an important title.

How did he get that title in the first place?

If he's got the favour of the ruler, then clearly you're already at odds with the ruler.

If he's got the favour of the realm as a whole, then they can probably get at least some of you thrown out, reducing your power beyond the point where you can control things.

If he doesn't have any of that, then how is he getting any power in the first place?

[Anaris]

Protests can  happen with very few people simply doing it over and over until the person is forced down, a vote would require the majority of the realm to agree.

This is false.

Protests are not cumulative over time. If you protest today, and tomorrow, and the next day, the value of your protest on the third day is exactly the same as the value of your protest on the first day.

You can think of it as each person having a "protest value" for each position they can protest, which is normally 0. When they protest publicly, it increases that value to a standard number—say, 10. Then, if they don't protest again, their "protest value" gradually decreases. Then, in order to determine if someone should lose prestige or lose a position, the game totals up all the protest values in the realm for that position at the turn.

It doesn't matter how often you protest, you can never increase your effectiveness past what you had the first time.

[Constantine]

How did he get that title in the first place?

He seemed competent and did not appear to be a "troublemaker" before appointment.
He is not supported by a ruler. He is supported by some knights, but they are not organized and few and won't be able to overthrow us even if they wanted. And even if they could it would be absolutely !@#$ty to play in a realm where people just overthrow a duke every three days until half of the duchy gets banned.

[Gabanus family]

As I wrote above, " (except with new duke, but power-struggle between new duke and old lords would be understandable and i dont think we should prevent that..."

Of course there should be some struggle, but it shouldn't be that the Lords are somehow able to just force the Duke out of position. The Duke is supposed to be more powerfull than the Lords, not the other way around. A Lord who is unhappy already has an option, move to a different Duchy in a form of protest and thus lower the power and income of the Duke who they don't like.

Why would you want to ban people from taking estates? Thats how they join your realm/duchy! But, lords *can* kick out troublesome knights from estate.

Well if I think they are going to protest me out because they don't like me or whatever, I don't want to have them set foot in my Duchy. In fact, if as a Duke I don't like someone, I should be able to prevent him from every serving under my command, directly or indirectly.

And yes, Lords can kick them out and then they can take a new estate again in another region. So if you have one region which just builds !@#$loads of estates with a Lord who doesn't like the Duke then suddenly you have 10 people not liking him if he brings the clique over. And in turn the Duke can't get rid of the Lord, so can't stop this. That's why Dukes should be able to declare a Lord unfit and unwelcome in his Duchy as well. It will limit your power as Duke, but you can get rid of troublesome Lords. Otherwise they can just stack up knights and protest the !@#$ out of you, makes no sense that you can't get rid of them (not their title, but at least their region out of your Duchy).

You don't think we'd include the same restriction on protesting government members, that a protestor must be a member of the realm for 5 days before they can protest, for protesting dukes as well?

That would have to be a bare minimum, but if you see the above and Constantine's parts that is not near enough.