Modifying TMP Training Reductions

[egamma]

Meh..Atamara is following the same cycle of peace-war it has always followed. Atamara always goes from "Everyone is at war" to "Everyone is at peace" and then after a few months of peace it's back to "Everyone is at war". This has happened pretty much without exception ever since I started playing the game. It hasn't needed TMP threats for that to happen.

Really, if people see a chance to go to a war that offers them some fun without being in the ball park of "This will kill our realm", they'll go for it be there TMP or not. The problem with TMP is that it pushes for war with hefty penalties when war means death to your realm and that's just plain bad for the game and boils down to the game giving the middle finger to the players in such realms.

If your realm can't survive a few battles, should it exist in a game called battlemaster?

[BardicNerd]

If your realm can't survive a few battles, should it exist in a game called battlemaster?

So, I take it we should get rid of everything in the game that doesn't directly involve fighting battles?

There's a lot more to BattleMaster than just fighting.

. . . a lot of it is scheming to keep the peace until you're in a position where you, and not the other guy, will win the fighting.

[Vaylon Kenadell]

. . . a lot of it is scheming to keep the peace until you're in a position where you, and not the other guy, will win the fighting.

I knew I was forgetting something.

[Chenier]

The drawback is that the whole point of it is to make things so bad in the realm that you have to go to war. The purpose of it is to let the majority of the players in the game who don't get to play the "Council Channel" aspect have something to do, and to force the Councils to find a war for them somehow.


Advies culling all the spawn is an unforeseen consequence, so perhaps increasing monsters/undead as a an affect of TMP would help things out.

When I suggested this alternative TMP system, I did not have this in mind, nor such drastically fast changes. I had in mind a system which's penalty speeds were slow enough so that if you spent all of your time training, your unit's training score would still overall increase. And it wasn't to make that realm's leaders so desperate that they'd jump on any random gangbang just to stave off the penalties, but rather to make them a weaker and weaker realm over the course of months, so that *other realms* get a greater incentive to attack them.

It was all about giving an edge to militaristic realms over pacifist ones, not about paralyzing pacifist realms. I've always firmly believe that even if we might want to encourage certain behaviours, this is still a game where people collectively decide what to do and how to do it, and that there is therefore no point in preventing people from doing what it is they have chosen to do, other than frustrating them and causing them to act in ways that make no RP sense and cause lame and hollow conflicts.

[Jens Namtrah]

this is still a game where people collectively decide what to do and how to do it, and that there is therefore no point in preventing people from doing what it is they have chosen to do, other than frustrating them and causing them to act in ways that make no RP sense and cause lame and hollow conflicts.

You look at everything from your own perspective - look at it from the perspective of a large group of players who came here to play BATTLEmaster and are instead ordered to do maintenance and training for a silent Council who refuses to go to war or let them in on decision-making.

If Rulers and Dukes are complaining (in this forum), and Common Nobles are lauding it, then it seems pretty good

[Bedwyr]

Not all Rulers and Dukes 

[Shizzle]

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think Fissoa will break RP to avoid TMP. It has nothing to do with not wanting to fight. Unless a Fissoan speaks up, of course

[Jens Namtrah]

I'm not entirely sure, but I don't think Fissoa will break RP to avoid TMP. It has nothing to do with not wanting to fight. Unless a Fissoan speaks up, of course

Fissoa has an incredibly easy way to avoid TMP, which would be entirely consistent with IC. I'm sure you can figure it out

[Indirik]

If Rulers and Dukes are complaining (in this forum), and Common Nobles are lauding it, then it seems pretty good

I think I've only seen one or two people claim that it's anything other than a necessary evil. And one of them runs two ruler characters.

Personally, I'm in the "necessary evil, but I wish we could do it another way" category.

[Jens Namtrah]

I think I've only seen one or two people claim that it's anything other than a necessary evil. And one of them runs two ruler characters.

Personally, I'm in the "necessary evil, but I wish we could do it another way" category.

We ALL think it's a necessary evil. The point is, it's necessary.

There IS another way - change the mentality of the ruling class in the game.

TMP is not going away, and I don't think they'll modify it much. If those of you deriding it would stop with the constant "We can't POSSIBLY go to war because of Excuses A, B, C, D and E" and instead look at some things you might do so you CAN go to war,   the pro-TMP camp might think you were dealing with the problem in good faith and be more willing to listen.

Instead, all we hear is a lot of whining about how tough things are for the poor little Duke who can't keep enough food in his city so that his production stays high so he can get stinking rich.

If you want it to go away, I think you'll need to negotiate it away. Which means you'll need to put something on the table, not just ask for a weaker punishment instead.

[Kain]

We ALL think it's a necessary evil. The point is, it's necessary.

There IS another way - change the mentality of the ruling class in the game.

Yeah...that seems easier.

Kings advisor: My King, the peasants are standing behind the new peasant leader Niels Dacke. They think our taxes are outrageous and are willing to die to get justice. We have an uprising on our hands.

King: Well, that is no problem. All we have to do is make them change their minds and like our high taxes. Perhaps fashionable t-shirts with "I pay my share" printed on them.

I think people whine about it because there is reason to. The code as it stands is like using a sledgehammer when a swiss army knife would do a far better job.

Personally I think we don't need the TMP code. We'll start wars anyway because we want to. Those few who don't (who can be reasonably expected to wage war in their current condition) can get warned and bolted, just like before.

[Jens Namtrah]

Yeah...that seems easier.

Kings advisor: My King, the peasants are standing behind the new peasant leader Niels Dacke. They think our taxes are outrageous and are willing to die to get justice. We have an uprising on our hands.

King: Well, that is no problem. All we have to do is make them change their minds and like our high taxes. Perhaps fashionable t-shirts with "I pay my share" printed on them.

Ruling class are the players. The ones who say all the time "you can't win BM", but haven't figured out that you can't lose it, either.
The ones who sit and work through every worst case, fringe scenario to convince themselves that "war would just be too risky", so they sit and do nothing but chatter in the council and ruler channels, at the detriment of all their "friends" in the realm.

(And then quite a few of them complain about a certain OCC group who is of doubtful intentions because they "play together and don't include anyone else". )

[Jens Namtrah]

Alright, here's an idea based on Kain's post:


Instead of Glory applied to TMP and affecting Ruler regions, etc. like now, it is applied to the Ruler.

If it hits a certain TMP level, Ruler and Council gets lightning bolted. Out of office, can't be re-elected/re-appointed for X time period.


Removes punishments against realm, regions, ability to raise army, etc. Puts it directly on people responsible for not getting involved in wars. OOC punishment - nothing to do with RP. You are given a gaming framework by Tom and devs in which you are expected to maintain a level of fighting and warfare, in the same way you are expected to keep a medieval atmosphere.

Punish the offenders, spare the innocent.

Yet somehow I think you won't like it 

[Kain]

Ruling class are the players. The ones who say all the time "you can't win BM", but haven't figured out that you can't lose it, either.
The ones who sit and work through every worst case, fringe scenario to convince themselves that "war would just be too risky", so they sit and do nothing but chatter in the council and ruler channels, at the detriment of all their "friends" in the realm.

(And then quite a few of them complain about a certain OCC group who is of doubtful intentions because they "play together and don't include anyone else". )

Yes, you mean they fear losing power and that is why they do not risk it. The risk of losing it by enemies jumping up and down on your realm is greater than the risk of rebellion or a duke in the realm-creating-mood. You can't be blamed if you don't do anything right?

But is that not just a natural impulse? A man always fears losing what has got. So in a world of no TMP, what does he fear? If he does not engage in war, his primary fear won't be other realms, it will be the dissatisfaction of his own nobles. Primarily the ones who do not hold one of the other three council positions or any dukeships because the forementioned parties feel like they've lots to lose too. The ones who hold normal lordships and those without even that, those are the ones with the least to lose.

So TMP could for example be replaced by more opportunities for the council and dukes to lose their powers.

[Jens Namtrah]

You know, I put my last idea up in only semi-seriousness, but the more I consider, the more I like it.

Imagine the huge boost to the Religion Game:

Lightning bolts from the Gods strong enough to strike down Kings - obviously, the War God is pretty powerful.

Religion builds up around it. Every battle includes some sort of "omen message" that tells you how much glory you got, so character quickly associate fighting with pleasing the Gods. Or, priests would have the ability to read the omens and explain, making them more central.

Kings who start to get the first TMP warnings to realm are obviously displeasing the Gods - hell, they might even get rebelled against before the realm is punished.

Honor and Prestige would mean something more concrete, and could help lead to your election.