Author Topic: Approved: Oath of fealty  (Read 832 times)

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1061
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Approved: Oath of fealty
« Topic Start: December 01, 2016, 10:26:17 PM »
If a certain noble takes upon an estate or a position of Lord within a duchy, or a duchy within a realm, in essence they swear allegiance to their Lord, Duke or Ruler.
Historically in a feudal society and oath was a certain pledge of allegiance, a noble would swear certain things using certain words.

The knight, Lord  or duke relation in BM is very utilitarian, usually just a practical deal to get a better income.
Sometimes however, these bonds of allegiance create interesting situations, political unions or niche groups.
Game mechanic changes over the last years supported messaging your duchy and other things to make this more easy or even possible.

A simple text recording, treaty style format for these bonds of allegiance could be a platform for real oaths, or conditions of allegiance.
Just like our diplomacy treaty system a message could be set up and then signed by both parties making the aliegance official.
Nothing fancy, just an official and public recording of the oath itself, stating how the vassal will serve its lord.
Lords, Dukes or Kings could set up standard or outstanding(individually unique per estate) oaths which only require the signature of a vassal.
This way vassals can still pick estates like they do now, but instead of just shopping for the best income, they can now also shop for the best oath.

Example:

Region Lord A has two available estates, estate 1 has an outstanding oath asking the vassal to swear allegiance as a champion, fighting the lords duels.
Estate 2 asks for a skilled man of the shadows for personal security or special services (infiltrator).
Even a promise to work as a courtier or diplomat could be considered.
A more common oath would be a pledge of military support to his or her vassal.

Perhaps it works easier for estates as for region lord positions or duchies.
But its an interesting addition none the less.
A duke could ask his lords to swear political allegiance as an oath of fealty, promising to vote in his favour if they are able to cast a vote, if not they could still vouch for their duke otherwise.
A duke could even ask or include in his oaths its lords to set up certain specific oaths, adding more special characters to its duchy.
Thus more effectively gaining influence and power inside and or outside the realm.

Its up to the Lord, Duke or ruler to make sure its vassals uphold their oath of fealty, and no game mechanics are further required for this to work.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2017, 02:59:56 AM by Vita »
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

DeVerci

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #1: December 01, 2016, 10:38:18 PM »
Unfortunately it doesn't seem as though many people are interested in this aspect. When I first started playing I would make long announcements and write personal letters to the lord I was joining declaring my allegiance only to receive no replies. Likewise most people seem more interested in just cashing in on taxes and don't bother writing to you when they take an estate.

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #2: December 01, 2016, 11:20:38 PM »
BM unfortunately doesn't have a way to enforce the oath of fealty. The worst you can do is asking your judge to ban the noble but like many other things in this world, supplies and demands kick in there as well. There are a lot of available estates while only a handful of nobles to fill them which empowers nobles. Also no one is sane enough to ban a noble over an oath since it is always better to keep nobles than let them go because they changed estates. To simply put, BM is in the state where loyalty means little.

Consequences deterred real life nobles from breaking their oaths too often and oath breakers were frowned upon and considered untrustworthy by many. Unfortunately when there are hardly anyone who cares about that, no treaty will prevent people from doing so.

BM is just not a medieval simulator some people are looking for.

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7674
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #3: December 01, 2016, 11:26:15 PM »
Unfortunately it doesn't seem as though many people are interested in this aspect. When I first started playing I would make long announcements and write personal letters to the lord I was joining declaring my allegiance only to receive no replies. Likewise most people seem more interested in just cashing in on taxes and don't bother writing to you when they take an estate.

Well most lords don't care. Back when it was implemented we were strongly encouraged to RP it and make it matter, but it waned over time. Over time, stuck with apathetic lords with zero ambition, personality, or care about their knights, one tends to not really bother too much anymore.

GundamMerc

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #4: December 01, 2016, 11:42:47 PM »
I feel that while the oath between a Knight and a Lord is rather loose, since it is purely for gold, the oath between a Lord and Duke is of much stronger stuff, that while not unbreakable, will make you some enemies if you break it without good reason.

I have also witnessed certain dukes able to solidify the loyalty of the knights of his lords, so that is something to keep in mind.

So my observations have been that loyalty is earned, not something to be taken for granted, in Battlemaster.

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #5: December 01, 2016, 11:59:33 PM »
In Vix Tiramora, I used to contact all the knights one by one to snatch people to my duchy. Over time, I placed loyal knights as lords of other duchies and when the time was right, I made them switch to my duchy, making my duchy larger than other duchies leaving each duchy with only one region each.

You can still do stuff like that if you invest time and energy XD

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7674
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #6: December 02, 2016, 01:11:36 AM »
You can, and I would do the same. ;)

But then again, I also used to push for government settings that had at least one position voted in by the dukes, as representatives. ;)

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1061
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #7: December 02, 2016, 09:05:56 AM »
Unfortunately it doesn't seem as though many people are interested in this aspect. When I first started playing I would make long announcements and write personal letters to the lord I was joining declaring my allegiance only to receive no replies. Likewise most people seem more interested in just cashing in on taxes and don't bother writing to you when they take an estate.

I also experience this.
In the system i am proposing, a knight can quickly see that without having to send the letter, in fact they can see that before even joining a realm.
If a Lord has some estates up with no outstanding oaths and another lord does have estates with outstanding oaths, you can just go to that lord instead.

As stated here by others: some players don't care about all this, their nobles can just pick which ever estate has most gold and no outstanding oath.
But those who do care can now quickly and easily find a Lord who cares as well, brining these players together more easily.
The system could work paralel and none mandatory, lords could be allowed to have knights without an oath, as long as it is publicly visible that they don't.
That way these lords' dukes or ruler can see that they don't and act upon that or not.
A duke can only appoint lords who he knows will draft up decent oaths for example.
Or a ruler can make oaths mandatory by law.

In response to banning nobles not upholding their oaths, they can also be kicked out of their estates by the lord, no need to ban here.
The Lord or another lord could then re offer another, less demanding oath to that knight.
To little nobles in the game could be a problem for this system to work properly, as stated by Zakky.
But we all know that too little nobles causes lots of other problems too, that's why we are taking drastic measures like sinking isles or throwing huge rogue armies at Dwilight.
We shouldnt ask if we have the nobles for it.
We should ask our selves if this feature request is going to positively influence the game without taking too much work for the devs.

I and apparently some others here do value a Lord and knight that take their oaths seriously.
Or enjoy the political struggles that could come with it.
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

Vita

  • Administrator
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1977
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #8: December 02, 2016, 02:32:51 PM »
This might be doable in a basic form. I'm thinking that lords get something like 250 characters to write an oath for their estates, rather than per-estate. I (or someone) would need to look into how/where/if that text would fit into the estate selection screen.

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7674
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #9: December 02, 2016, 03:34:27 PM »
This might be doable in a basic form. I'm thinking that lords get something like 250 characters to write an oath for their estates, rather than per-estate. I (or someone) would need to look into how/where/if that text would fit into the estate selection screen.

I like this.

Perhaps also have it for duchies (lords), and even realms (dukes)? I know some realms make newcommers swear by a code of sorts, further officializing and spreading this wouldn't seem like a bad thing to me. Strengthen the ties to the immediate liege, but also all ties in general. Realm identities and cultures took quite a blow with player decline, but they made for great appeal. Strengthening the direct oaths of fealty between each step of the social ladder would seem beneficial to me. Text is ample for this, no need for special mechanics other than facilitating the spread and officiousness of said text.

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1061
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #10: December 02, 2016, 07:53:02 PM »
This might be doable in a basic form. I'm thinking that lords get something like 250 characters to write an oath for their estates, rather than per-estate. I (or someone) would need to look into how/where/if that text would fit into the estate selection screen.

An oath for all estates could be very handy for most cases but an oath per estate is even more intresting.
If i give knight a 35% and knight B 20%, perhaps i want more or something specific in return for the 15% extra.
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #11: December 02, 2016, 07:56:00 PM »
Even with this oath thing, I doubt people will bother.

GundamMerc

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #12: December 02, 2016, 09:34:08 PM »
I'd rather not have this forced on the playerbase. Typically that doesn't end well, and those that want to roleplay taking their oaths seriously will do so already.

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1061
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #13: December 02, 2016, 09:47:30 PM »
I'd rather not have this forced on the playerbase. Typically that doesn't end well, and those that want to roleplay taking their oaths seriously will do so already.

I agree that it shouldn't be forced.
One should be able to choose, oath or no oath, as lord, Duke ruler and knight.
As a Lord, just don't make any oathed estates, as a knight, look for oathless estates, if you cant find them or enough in your realm, join a realm with regions who do.

This will bring people together who do care, but also those who don't.
It makes it easier to find the place we are looking for.
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

Renodin

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 387
    • View Profile
Re: Oath of fealty
« Reply #14: December 02, 2016, 11:21:39 PM »
I used to get quite involved with oaths and fealty and loyalty. True it was mainly for roleplaying purposes but it added a lot of atmosphere if not potential for intrigue and what not.

On the wiki I saved a good chunk of the letters / rp's / oaths. Take a look and see if that's something you liked or could use for inspiration.

Personally I'd hold players / characters to their oaths and treated them accordingly.

http://wiki.battlemaster.org/wiki/Keepers_of_Lore/Regions/Giask

Scroll down a wee bit until you hit the text : ''Listed here are surviving records of the letters and document shared...''