Author Topic: Population  (Read 15606 times)

Ketchum

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1667
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #15: January 09, 2017, 01:34:21 AM »
After reading all these, here's what I suggest we do.

Plague

The disappearance of many food bushels overnight. Causing each realm to source food from neighboring realms and in the end, war! ;)
Werewolf Games: Villager (6) Wolf (4) Seer (3); Lynched as Villager(1). Lost as Villager(1), Lost as Wolf(1) due to Parity. Hunted as Villager(1). Lynched as Seer(2).
Won as Villager(3). Won as Seer(1). Won as Wolf(3).
BM Characters: East Continent(Brock), Colonies(Ash), Dwilight(Gary)

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Population
« Reply #16: January 09, 2017, 01:46:09 AM »
Getting more players? That would most likely solve the problem.

I've only seen one person do it on a scale that we need. JeVondair.

GundamMerc

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 929
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #17: January 09, 2017, 05:56:52 AM »
I've only seen one person do it on a scale that we need. JeVondair.

There was the Dwarf Fortress community... until certain events happened.

MTYL

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • No personal text here, sorry.
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #18: January 09, 2017, 07:03:05 AM »
There was the Dwarf Fortress community... until certain events happened.
I've only seen one person do it on a scale that we need. JeVondair.

So, the solution is simple:

1. Ask JeVondair to do on Dwillight the same magic he/she (I know not if JeVondair is a dude or a chick, I assumed it's a chick because most of his/hers characters are females but I don't wanna offend anybody) done on EC.
2. Make certain events unhappen and reinvite DF's community. Et voila - playerbase doubled! No need to thank me for my genius fellas. Now, where's my bowing with taking a hat off his head emoji?  8)
_____
New family - Arnickles Renodin: Maura(OS), Myr(LN)
Old family - The (dead) Bennets: Max(SF), Joran(VT), Jarra(OS)

Gildre

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1165
  • If you can't keep up, don't step up.
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #19: January 09, 2017, 07:47:22 AM »
What happened with the Dwarf Fortress community?
Admit nothing, deny everything, make counter-accusations.

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Population
« Reply #20: January 09, 2017, 11:54:57 AM »
They unfortunately joined Barca. When we wiped West Dwilight out, they quit.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #21: January 09, 2017, 01:27:20 PM »
Dwilight never had 2 characters per continent, it was the first continent to have the 1 character per continent rule and never had otherwise.

I disagree that small realms are necessarily hopeless, though. The Ceded City Alliance lasted a while despite neighboring giants. The polarized nature of the continent and existence of competitive power blocs played a large part in it, though, but still.

I think what some people were trying to suggest was more along the lines of considering density at a more local scale, instead of continental. Right now, Luria expands and takes more regions than they have nobles, and the direct consequence is that more monsters spawn to carve up what is already the densest realm of the continent, Westgard. Every region the non-dense eastern realms take are basically at the cost of the densest realms of the game, Westgard and D'Hara, and potentially Fissoa and Astrum. Perhaps less so with the sea travel, but still.

If regions that remained without (enough) knights for too long attracted and spawned more rogues, while regions with enough never (or almost) spawned any rogues, it could be a means to direct the monsters where they are most likely to accomplish their purpose.

Some consideration would have to be put for depopulated regions, though. We wouldn't want to force knights to abandon their 150 gold/week estates just to join a 1/50 000 population region.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Vita`

  • BM Dev Team
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 2558
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #22: January 09, 2017, 03:26:58 PM »
I think what some people were trying to suggest was more along the lines of considering density at a more local scale, instead of continental. Right now, Luria expands and takes more regions than they have nobles, and the direct consequence is that more monsters spawn to carve up what is already the densest realm of the continent, Westgard. Every region the non-dense eastern realms take are basically at the cost of the densest realms of the game, Westgard and D'Hara, and potentially Fissoa and Astrum. Perhaps less so with the sea travel, but still.
It used to be more even to all rogue borderlands, but players whined about this (Fissoa almost dying and D'Hara being hit from both east and west), so Anaris made changes to have the monsters spawn strongest in the largest rogue clump (the West). First folks whine to turn down the monsters for eastern realms. Now you whine for the opposite of eastern realms not having it easier. People are never happy.

Quote
If regions that remained without (enough) knights for too long attracted and spawned more rogues, while regions with enough never (or almost) spawned any rogues, it could be a means to direct the monsters where they are most likely to accomplish their purpose.
Lordless regions do attract rogues preferably to other regions. And low estate coverage attracts rogue preferably to other regions too.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 03:35:09 PM by Vita »

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Population
« Reply #23: January 09, 2017, 04:00:17 PM »
Now monsters can swim across. This should do what you want them to do Chenier.

Lordless + Low estate coverage = Fissoa and Luria Nova. There you have it.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #24: January 09, 2017, 07:39:02 PM »
It used to be more even to all rogue borderlands, but players whined about this (Fissoa almost dying and D'Hara being hit from both east and west), so Anaris made changes to have the monsters spawn strongest in the largest rogue clump (the West). First folks whine to turn down the monsters for eastern realms. Now you whine for the opposite of eastern realms not having it easier. People are never happy.
Lordless regions do attract rogues preferably to other regions. And low estate coverage attracts rogue preferably to other regions too.

Sure, but fine tuning can make a world of difference. Making the large hordes spawn in the largest contiguous rogue region, as opposed to all rogue regions, solves the "this prevents any realm from ever really being able to war another" problem. But it only worsens the "the realms with the lowest density are also the least affected by the rogues meant to keep density in check" problem. Theoretically, with the current course, we could have those hollow depopulated realms keep on growing, and growing, and growing, until the hordes overwhelm all of the most populous realms. I don't think anyone thinks this would be a good thing.

On the other hand, Fissoa and Arnor both have more regions than nobles (while I'm sure it used to be as such for Luria, the Realm List seems to suggest Luria has a lot more nobles than I recall?). And Fissoa is surrounded by rogue regions to keep expanding to. If the swimming hordes continued to spawn as they do now, but prioritized regions without knights as target breeding grounds to aggregate to, then wouldn't we be 1) applying the solution to its root cause (ultra-expansionnist realms) and 2) doing so in a way that doesn't interfere with regular realms' ability to do the PvP they desire?

A formula to determine a region's attractiveness to horde migrations could factor in: lack of knights, lack of lord, density of host realm (compared to average), region population, and region population percentage. As such, a region with no knight, no lord, in a realm with very few nobles per region, a huge population and 100% of its potential population would be considerably more attractive than a region with a knight, a lord, in a realm with a high density ratio, and only 1 peasant. Every other region would fall in between these two extremes.

To be clear, I do not have issue with the rogues in the West as they are. D'Harans do,  I guess, but as general of Westgard, I personally do not. What I like less is the relation between our challenges and the actions of others over which we have no power. In a way, it feels like Fissoa is waging war on us with a battery of Big Berthas, our options being limited to healing the wounded and hoping we can heal them faster than they get killed. The underlying issue here is geography, I've made this point many times, but I think it obvious to all that tweaking monster behavior is far more likely to be done than removing all of these rogue land masses to crunch all of the eastern realms closer together.

I can't comment on the impacts of the new swimming code because I have no idea how it works, I have not been able to witness its impacts yet (I don't think anyone has nor will for some time). Personally, I don't think it, in itself, does much to address my cited concerns, it mostly just helps D'Hara retake Port Raviel. Eidulb and Candiels seem to have held just fine, nobody's holding the Northern pass, and Westgard doesn't hold any chokepoint at all. I can't really see great benefits for this change except for D'Hara, but if the monsters cross randomly, it could just be a step back towards the old "everyone is too busy fending the rogues to tend to their PvP".
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Population
« Reply #25: January 09, 2017, 08:10:50 PM »
Yeah.. this PvP idea ain't going to convince anyone. There was a time when monsters were restricted to stay only on West Dwilight. People still didn't fight. It is not monsters who are preventing people from fighting. It is usually people.

You can condemn Fissoa and LN for their uncontrolled expansion. Players should try to solve the issues first. This monster sea travel change should make other eastern realms suffer a bit. Don't know by how much yet. Give it a few months.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 08:13:37 PM by Zakky »

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #26: January 09, 2017, 08:53:35 PM »
Yeah.. this PvP idea ain't going to convince anyone. There was a time when monsters were restricted to stay only on West Dwilight. People still didn't fight. It is not monsters who are preventing people from fighting. It is usually people.

You can condemn Fissoa and LN for their uncontrolled expansion. Players should try to solve the issues first. This monster sea travel change should make other eastern realms suffer a bit. Don't know by how much yet. Give it a few months.

While I can generally agree with the sentiment that the main obstacle to player fun is, often, players themselves, I don't really think it appropriate to describe Dwilight as a peace continent. There has just been wars all over central and northern East Dwilight in the rather recent past. And I've heard of other wars before that. And before before that, sure there were huge blocs, but there war rarely every extended periods without at least one war somewhere, other than when the context forced it. And even then? I really can't remember a true peace period for Dwilight. Even at its beginning, there was a number of conflicts in the Springdale area, with secessionists, colonists, and such. Then it spread to the North-West, with multiple conflicts among colonists there. And then in Central Dwilight and the Maroccidens. And then between Fissoa and Luria. And then again in the North. And I'm probably forgetting a bunch of wars between those, not to mention those since. While some may argue that not all of those wars were fun, or that not all of those wars involved a lot of parties, it remains that the continent, on its whole, had way more than its share of wars.

But players respond to incentives. Fissoa, as it is, really has no reason not to expand. Really, they have nothing else to do than to expand. I can't really blame them, though, the geography of that area is atrocious. If at least their expansion had a cost in terms of stability, then at least they could make the choice themselves: do we remain smaller, but able to project strength abroad, or do we grow and fold ourselves on ourselves, focusing on dealing with the rogues that threaten our expansion? I honestly kind of pity them.
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

Zakilevo

  • Guest
Re: Population
« Reply #27: January 09, 2017, 09:00:09 PM »
Like Vita` pointed out. Players don't want what is the best for the game overall. They want what is the best for them. It is as simple as that. Game mechanic changes can't fix that.

Chenier

  • Exalted Emperor
  • ******
  • Posts: 8120
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #28: January 09, 2017, 09:52:04 PM »
Like Vita` pointed out. Players don't want what is the best for the game overall. They want what is the best for them. It is as simple as that. Game mechanic changes can't fix that.

Most of them, sure, but not all of them. ;)
Dit donc camarade soleil / Ne trouves-tu ça pas plutôt con / De donner une journée pareil / À un patron

jaune

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 725
  • Suck my socks!
    • View Profile
Re: Population
« Reply #29: January 10, 2017, 02:30:52 PM »
Just remove all restrictions for size and throw away stupid rogues... you will see Fissoa conquer whole continent with its new king :P

-Jaune
~Violence is always an option!~