Author Topic: region diplomacy crisis  (Read 429 times)

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
region diplomacy crisis
« Topic Start: May 26, 2017, 11:10:16 AM »
So i'd like some advise/complain about an issue i am facing in game concerning region diplomacy.

Fallangard is locked in by Mashad which somehow has an abysmal loyalty to Fallnagard and its allies, they hate all of them.
It must have been cause by something but i have no idea what or why.

At some point almost all nobles in Fallangard turned diplomat and courtier to try and keep the region stable while it was in Fallangards hands.
Even with regular police work control kept dropping and it was impossible to change anything considerably.
Even higher skilled diplomats from other realms started helping but to no avail.
In fact there was no visible change at all.

The region revolted to all kinds of realms back and forth and as long as itys in enemy hands Fallnagard cannot enter the region or ~8 K CS militia pop up, which is far to strong for a one region realm with 5 nobles like Fallangard.
This means Fallangard is locked in its capital unable to move anywhere.

The effect of region diplomacy in this case is so extreme that it almost completely makes war impossible for Fallangard.
Sometimes it can attack Mashad with allies or at a moment where the peasants have nearly disappeared, that way Fallangard can move onwards to other regions.
Those other regions cant be Caligan as there too, peasant militias are formed and Fallangard decimated.
As the army returns it will meet a fresh band of militia in Mashad which it has to try fighting through.

This has been going on for months now and many things have been tried.
We are out of options now and even though we already had lots of advise that didnt work i will ask for it again.
If you know how we can fix this situation please tell us.

In general i'd like to point out that diplomacy may have far to large of a role in the game.
Instead of making an interesting ' side game' , Diplomats have become extremely essential to be able to go to war.
I'd rather see the two separated as much as possible.
Allthough large realms have less problems with region diplomacy then small realms, so a certain tweak to balance things back out could already make a difference.
But perhaps i am just not getting it and no one managed to give me the correct advise on how to deal with the issue.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 11:37:36 AM by Nosferatus »
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7591
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #1: May 26, 2017, 03:31:58 PM »
This pretty much never happens. Either there was a bug or it was a really edge case.

Sometimes it's easier to do all of those things while the region is rogue, though, because I think that some of the daily penalties only apply when it is under your command.

That said, one region realms with 5 nobles is more problematic than 8k CS of militia... It's not the game's fault if you are too small to be viable. 8kCS is unusual for peasant militias, but it's not a very impressive force. A realm that is unable to muster at least 10k CS of mobile army isn't likely to ever be able to accomplish anything worthwhile.

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #2: May 26, 2017, 07:00:29 PM »
That said, one region realms with 5 nobles is more problematic than 8k CS of militia... It's not the game's fault if you are too small to be viable. 8kCS is unusual for peasant militias, but it's not a very impressive force. A realm that is unable to muster at least 10k CS of mobile army isn't likely to ever be able to accomplish anything worthwhile.

I know 8k cs of peasants aren't very impressive :)
Fallangard's army of 4K Cs is even less impressive.

The peasant militia in Enemy regions do make a difference, especially for smaller realms.
It is the absolute decisive element in this case, i am sure it would be in similar cases.
Everywhere you go the enemy gets allot of peasant militia to join them almost doubling their defensive strength.

anyway, what are you really implying here?
Should small armies of around 10K just not exist?
Go tell that to almost half of BM...
If closing atamara and western dwilight with its realms was a bad move then shutting down all these small realms in bm would mean the same thing.

PS, i don't think this is a bug.
Fallangard is allied with too many realms that are hated in Mashad, i think thats the main factor in not beeing able to keep the region once its in Fallangard's control.
But then again small realms like Fallangard usually need a few allies to be able to achieve anything.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 07:07:12 PM by Nosferatus »
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

JeVondair

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1148
    • View Profile
    • SWTOR Reapers Guild
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #3: May 26, 2017, 08:59:38 PM »
This gives me a follow up question. Shouldn't Capital's act like shrines in that they generate loyalty to the realm that spills over into adjacent regions?


I'd imagine Mashaad should be super loyal to the government in Hamadan bc its right there and Caligus didn't declare hatred so...
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among people everywhere"

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7591
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #4: May 27, 2017, 02:13:42 AM »
anyway, what are you really implying here?
Should small armies of around 10K just not exist?
Go tell that to almost half of BM...
If closing atamara and western dwilight with its realms was a bad move then shutting down all these small realms in bm would mean the same thing.

PS, i don't think this is a bug.
Fallangard is allied with too many realms that are hated in Mashad, i think thats the main factor in not beeing able to keep the region once its in Fallangard's control.
But then again small realms like Fallangard usually need a few allies to be able to achieve anything.

I don't really see the comparison. Western dwilight was full of strong and populous realms. They were dynamic and they had the means to their ambitions. The North-West continuously evolved and the mid-west didn't lack stuff to do, either. Closing Atamara, on the other hand, had a positive effect, no?

These micro-states... at best they hope to be next to another micro-state, so that they can fight over a random rural? They can barely defeat peasant mobs, the slightest monster spawn threatens them, and anything with even just lvl 1 walls is beyond their reach. Nobody's talking about dev intervention to destroy them. But how much effort should be put into making unviable realms viable?

Small armies can exist and serve a point. You probably want at least 4k CS per army though, prefferably 7-8k. As long as you've got enough among all of your armies to take on basic threats. All of which depends on the regions you have, sure, but also largely in how many nobles you have and what kind of wealth distribution you've got. A realm with 800/50/50/50/50 gold per week distribution is likely to field much less of an army than one with 200/100/100/100/100/100/100/100/100 gold per week distribution.

This gives me a follow up question. Shouldn't Capital's act like shrines in that they generate loyalty to the realm that spills over into adjacent regions?

I don't think they do... could be a good thing if they did, though. Would help the small realms grow, provided they have the manpower and will to back that up.

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #5: May 27, 2017, 07:22:32 AM »
Jevondair:  Nice idea, it would also be demotivating to destroy or nearly destroy realms and become large easily.
It would get harder and harder to hold and take these last regions.


Chenier:
I agree that small realms like that can't do much but grow.
Thats why they shouldnt be to much obstructed in it.
This doens't help to make the small realms grow larger nor for them to die.
It creates status quo where no one can do anything but wait or leave the realm.
I'd rather see small realms be conquered or destroyed by other realms then for them to slowly wither away of inactivity.
ideally they should get a chance to grow into hopefully something refreshing.
New realms tend to cause new conflicts.
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7591
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #6: May 28, 2017, 02:50:07 AM »
Jevondair:  Nice idea, it would also be demotivating to destroy or nearly destroy realms and become large easily.
It would get harder and harder to hold and take these last regions.


Chenier:
I agree that small realms like that can't do much but grow.
Thats why they shouldnt be to much obstructed in it.
This doens't help to make the small realms grow larger nor for them to die.
It creates status quo where no one can do anything but wait or leave the realm.
I'd rather see small realms be conquered or destroyed by other realms then for them to slowly wither away of inactivity.
ideally they should get a chance to grow into hopefully something refreshing.
New realms tend to cause new conflicts.

I, too, would rather see them absorbed by a neighbor than be artificially maintained.

Size in terms of regions is not the main vulnerability, though, it's size in terms of nobles. Small realms used to accomplish things. The Ceded City Alliance was a bunch of tiny realms. But these minuscule realms had as many nobles as many "large" realms do nowadays...

And I think any measure to make small realms more viable should keep with this. Noble count should be the most important factor in a realm's strength, imo. Perhaps the CS/soldier should increase for small units even more than it does not? Based on the captain, perhaps? (don't want to buff militia, though, if anything it ought to be nerfed)

Ketchum

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 1563
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #7: May 29, 2017, 02:08:03 AM »
Nosferatus, I have been playing on Diplomat/Ambassador role for my characters for sometime. So I may have some inputs.

1) It is good to see that you did utilize courtier and diplomats to keep the loyalty. However what is the % percentage skill levels of your diplomats? A fresh speaking diplomat is not going to give much loyalty bonus for region increase. Did all your diplomats skills have been trained in a very high % percentage levels?

2) Since you mention that Fallangard is allied with many realms that the region hate or dislike... Did you try laud other realms so that their alliances with Fallangard do not turn into something used against Fallangard? Sometimes lauding your own realm is not helpful.

3) Priest can be helpful as much as Ambassador does. I see only Courtier and Diplomat are mentioned here, so I figure you need Priest too.

4) Region lord/Judge should hold Harsh Court. Fear makes good increase to Loyalty. Did you try that?

Hope this information helpful. Do inform me should you have question.
Werewolf Games: Villager (6) Wolf (4) Seer (3); Lynched as Villager(1). Lost as Villager(1), Lost as Wolf(1) due to Parity. Hunted as Villager(1). Lynched as Seer(2).
Won as Villager(3). Won as Seer(1). Won as Wolf(3).
BM Characters: East Continent(Brock), Colonies(Ash), Dwilight(Gary)

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #8: May 30, 2017, 02:57:20 PM »
Nosferatus, I have been playing on Diplomat/Ambassador role for my characters for sometime. So I may have some inputs.

1) It is good to see that you did utilize courtier and diplomats to keep the loyalty. However what is the % percentage skill levels of your diplomats? A fresh speaking diplomat is not going to give much loyalty bonus for region increase. Did all your diplomats skills have been trained in a very high % percentage levels?

2) Since you mention that Fallangard is allied with many realms that the region hate or dislike... Did you try laud other realms so that their alliances with Fallangard do not turn into something used against Fallangard? Sometimes lauding your own realm is not helpful.

3) Priest can be helpful as much as Ambassador does. I see only Courtier and Diplomat are mentioned here, so I figure you need Priest too.

4) Region lord/Judge should hold Harsh Court. Fear makes good increase to Loyalty. Did you try that?

Hope this information helpful. Do inform me should you have question.

Thanks for the advise, i will forward it.

We had a quite skilled allied diplomat working in Mashad, he is also a priest, the other diplomats are probably not as good.
Basically your saying that loyalty of hated allies should be improved first.
What about loving the enemy?

Off course harsh courts and police work has been done as much as possible.

We are trying to get the region in our hands again, lets see how it goes this time.

Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog

Nosferatus

  • Testers
  • Mighty Duke
  • *
  • Posts: 1040
  • Too weird to live, too rare to die
    • View Profile
Re: region diplomacy crisis
« Reply #9: June 04, 2017, 08:22:32 AM »
Little update:

Fallangard is getting much IG help from other diplomats, but the region revolted again after only one full day(just like the last several times) even though control was at core, a Lord appointed and the whole realm present doing police work.
I geuss Diplomats have to do their work first before the region can be taken by force?

In the 13 years I played this game i never had a situation like this.
I hate to say it but wasn't this Battlemaster?
Diplomat game is so important atm that without an army of them 'battle' will do no good.

I know Fallangard is small but Mashad is the only point from which to grow.
At this point i am very sure that a larger army wouldn't make enough of a difference to keep the region from revolting.
Even if it did, it would mean that a massive army is necessary to stay in the region, effectively keeping them from fighting as long as the diplomats need to do their work.
Either way, no matter how large your realm is you need diplomats in cases like this, or adopt your whole realm diplomacy on the opinion of peasants in a single(allthough important)  region.
In Fallangards case it would changing everything completely, either neutrality with everyone(bye bye 'battle' master) or completely switch allies for enemies.
Is that what was intended for the region diplomacy mechanics?
Formerly playing the Nosferatus and Bhrantan Family.
Currently playing the Polytus Family in: Gotland, Madina, Astrum, Outer Tilog