Author Topic: How BM is a linear game, and thanks for that.  (Read 3272 times)

vonGenf

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This is not a request for a change; rather it is a comment on why BM is so great. Reading the thread on increasing the time pool (http://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,781.0.html) reminded of some thoughts I had about why BM is a game I can keep playing without sacrificing my life, and I though I'd share them.

Many years ago, arund 1998-2000, I was playing a game called Earth:2025. I don't know if anyone else here played it, it had a few thousands player at some point, although many were undoubtedly multis. It had many of the same features as BM: you were controlling a single entity (in this case a realm instead of a character), you had complete control over your own realm and set your own goals, but the main goal of the game was to be part of a team. I rarely saw any spying or backstabbing, so maybe I can compare to the "mythical golden age" of BM; I think the main reason was that you were allowed a single realm, such that treason was really seen as personal treason, and no one would claim to play one character one way and the next one another. There was no meaningful IC/OOC separation either.

Like BM, the game let you accumulate hours, capped at a certain number that you would reach in roughly a day, and then spend them all at once. It didn't have turns.

Like BM, you could play with literally two clicks a day, although if you played only that way it was about as fun as playing excel spreadsheet optimization. The real fun was in joining a team ("alliances" in this case), reading countless messages and forum posts and IRC logs, and generally be involved in decision-making for your alliance.

There were other differences, of course, like regular resets, but enough introduction. I think the main difference, the difference that means that I can still play BM at the rhythm I want and not let it eat all my life, is that Earth:2025 was an exponential game. By this I mean that if you played the game on the two-clicks a day schedule, your realm would grow daily by roughly 10%. If you were really good at micromanagement it would grow by 15%, if you were bad or unlucky only 5%.

After ten days, the difference amounts to a 250% difference in strength. At the end of the month, a 1600% difference. As in BM, if you try to fight an enemy 16 times as strong as you are, you rapidly die.

The game therefore consisted in micromanaging your realm and that of your allies at the beginning, and then strike only when ready. Almost every war devolved into a world war; if war involved less than everyone, the realms at peace would almost certainly grow bigger than realms at war rapidly. This was fun in itself, although quite different.

What was not fun was the "play every single day" mentality this entailed. If you missed a single day, your enemy would outgrow you by 10%. If you missed 3 days in a row, you would lose comparatively 30% in size, and with no way to gain it back since everyone was micromanaging to keep that breakneck pace of 15%/day growth.

Eventually, once everybody understood how to micromanage their realm, this meant activity was the only deciding factor. And then you either you lose the fun, or you decide to put your whole life into it. It wasn't worth it and I quit.

BM is not like that. Sure, when you leave for a few days, or weeks, or months, other people grow in skill, gold, or land, while you're not. But they just grow linearly; they cannot use that growth as a lever to ever more growth and get so far ahead of you that you'll never catch them.

In BM, of course newcomers and less active characters are not as powerful as you are; but you actually can catch up.

Sure, if you train twice a day instead of once a day your troops will be better trained; nevertheless your unit will eventually be wiped out and you will have to start again, and you will be equal to others.

Sure, if your realm has 20% more gold than your enemy, all else being equal it will be 20% more powerful; but if nothing happens 3 months from now it will still be only 20% more powerful, and if you've found an edge by that time you can still win. They can't use that 20% advantage to become 4 times as big just by letting time pass.

And this is why BM is neverendingly great.
After all it's a roleplaying game.

JPierreD

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I fully agree, and it was envisioning something like your experience with that other game that I was suggesting the time pool change. Perhaps my previsions on what would happen in the long-term if you cannot log in twice a day were off, and the problems wouldn't be that big...
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Chenier

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Sure, if your realm has 20% more gold than your enemy, all else being equal it will be 20% more powerful; but if nothing happens 3 months from now it will still be only 20% more powerful, and if you've found an edge by that time you can still win. They can't use that 20% advantage to become 4 times as big just by letting time pass.

More or less.

If a realm produces X excess gold (after maintenance and all) while another produces 1.2X excess gold (for a similar army and all else being equal), and they are at peace, then over say 20 weeks, the richer realm will have accumulated 1X surplus gold, which can then be used to temporarily boost the military enough to give it a considerable edge in the first battle and therefore allowing it to completely cripple the other realm in a few strokes only, while it would have taken much longer had they not waited.

Say X is 2000 excess gold per week (meaning the richer realm produces 2400 excess gold per week) , then at the end of 20 weeks the richer realm will have 8000 more gold on hand for military efforts.

Mind you, they have to actively be saving up their coins, which most don't. And still income on its own isn't quite enough, as it takes proper strategy, a good army (noble-wise), and proper diplomatic relations to win wars. I was just saying, there is an advantage to starting out richer and staying in peace for a while if you are planning a war.
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De-Legro

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Only pressure to log in every day? I've played Earth: 2025 and many of the various games that it lead to, like Travian, Tribal Wars, Ogame, Ikariam, Gepolis etc. If you play in a competitive alliance like I did, then generally you are expected to be online for 14+ hours a day, every day. I know that some of the top players would pretty much sit at their computers for days on end, with audio alarms set up so they could react instantly to any attack.
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Tom

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Thanks. Yes, diminishing returns is a core concept in BattleMaster. Skills are a great example: The better your skills are, the more it takes to grow them. It's actually the reverse of exponential growth, many growth figures in BM are inverse power functions like that.

And that's necessary, because BM is set in a finite world. Most other games of this kind are set in an infinite world - one where you can basically grow forever. In BM, the income of the land is a fixed factor, and you can't grow it (at least not permanently). That one design decision sets BM apart from almost every other strategy, world-building game out there.

And I think it was a good decision to make.

vonGenf

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Only pressure to log in every day? I've played Earth: 2025 and many of the various games that it lead to, like Travian, Tribal Wars, Ogame, Ikariam, Gepolis etc. If you play in a competitive alliance like I did, then generally you are expected to be online for 14+ hours a day, every day. I know that some of the top players would pretty much sit at their computers for days on end, with audio alarms set up so they could react instantly to any attack.

I remember the 4+hours daily logging during wartime. I also know some people would share phone numbers to be called up in the middle of the night is they were attacked. That problem, however, was due to the absence of turn structure. You could save your realm pretty easily if you were in front of the computer while it was attacked, and you were screwed otherwise. The turn-based structure of BM solves that problem quite nicely.

Outside of war, however, you could truly play on 5 minutes a day. However, you could not miss a single day, ever. That's a different issue.

Who were you playing, by the way, and when? I was UnHoly, Strike Team Leader, UCN.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2011, 04:44:51 PM by vonGenf »
After all it's a roleplaying game.

Chenier

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Thanks. Yes, diminishing returns is a core concept in BattleMaster. Skills are a great example: The better your skills are, the more it takes to grow them. It's actually the reverse of exponential growth, many growth figures in BM are inverse power functions like that.

And that's necessary, because BM is set in a finite world. Most other games of this kind are set in an infinite world - one where you can basically grow forever. In BM, the income of the land is a fixed factor, and you can't grow it (at least not permanently). That one design decision sets BM apart from almost every other strategy, world-building game out there.

And I think it was a good decision to make.

I agree.
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Though that is said, I believe no one will ever come close to DrSceptre Meadowcrest's tournament wins record even if he never wins another tournament for the rest of his existence. There are always places for amazing exceptions.