Removal of Magic on non BT Islands

[Gabanus family]

I like both of Chenier's suggestions, at least on islands beyond BT and BT can stay the same I suppose.

This would prevent someone from being unable to play the game (like me atm) and it would also prevent someone from playing wizardmaster instead of battlemaster.

"If you want to play a game about ancient Rome, there are some around. If you want to play a Tolkien game, or a Star Wars game, or a Warcraft clone or whatever else you like - then go and play one of the many games in those genres. But BattleMaster stands on it's own."

[Foxglove]

That was exactly what I was just thinking.

A strong resistance to magic immediately following, that slowly decays over the course of 2 weeks or so. Possibly even not decaying at all if the affected character is wounded, so as to avoid situations where you're wounded for exactly as long as you have magic resistance.

It shouldn't be too difficult to implement, either.

I have no problems with magic in general in the game. I actually think it adds a fun dimension to it. I can see that it's a problem when it effectively prevents someone from playing a specific character for a long period, though. However, it should be remembered that a character could also be repeatedly targeted for assassination in the same way. I can remember a time when a Duke in a realm I was in spent about a month being constantly assassinated by different infiltrators. It's actually much more difficult to gather and save a collection of wounding scrolls for a specific use like this than it is to have someone targeted for assassination. That was even more the case when the game had more players and more infiltrators.

It would also be wrong to ignore how deeply this specific case is linked to the vastly overpowered ability to raise the peasants. As someone who's played in several great now-dead realms, I know I'd have loved to have had that ability to use it to save favourite realms. However, frankly, the way it's repeatedly saved Oligarch is ridiculously unbalanced. Basically, the entire united armies of one half of the continent haven't been able to take down one city in spite of having taken the walls numerous times. In my opinion, that's too much and frustrating. I'm all for making it difficult to kill realms, but making it impossible...? As I said, I'd have loved to have had that ability to use it to protect some of my favourite realms, but I can see that it's not actually that good for the game. In this case, months of political deals and negotiations between many characters have to take place to form and keep together a united allied army to siege a city. Then that's negated by one player pressing a button to raise the peasants. And that's happened multiple times.

It's this that's caused the one character to be repeatedly targeted - whether by assassins or magic. The ability to raise a vast defensive force to save a city that would probably have fallen a year ago if that ability didn't exist. The one character has to be targeted for the attackers to have any chance of finishing the job.

The use of magic across the game isn't the problem. I have characters who never hear of scrolls being used. This circumstance around this one specific character is a problem, but it's a problem created by game mechanics that effect both sides in the conflict.

[Gabanus family]

Firstly, that's not the reason why Garas has been targeted so often. Out of all the times he was targeted, I believe these two latest cases are the only ones where he was the ruler of Oligarch. In the other cases that was Catherine and he was General or Duke in stead.

Secondly, I agree that the peasant raising is overpowered and you'll find statements on this forum for me arguing that it should be either lowered or removed entirely (despite Oligarch being a single city realm).

Thirdly, I disagree with your statement that assasinations are easier. Assasinations are very easy to defend against (not sure if they changed more than just the removal of the invisibility for infils, or also the percentage chances of success) by simply recruiting enough men etc. I speak from experience (have 2 assasins and 1 had  100 fame on both SF and infil for quite a while with skills at at least 80%) when I say that assasination attempts are very risky both in terms of the chance of failure and in terms of the consequences. I have the feeling they made escaping from jail a lot more difficult as well, meaning that capture often results in a ban and well after that it becomes a death trap to even go near the realm. Magic poses no such risk and from what I can tell there's no possible way to defend yourself against magical attacks. And based on how often they used this scroll on me, apparently it's not that hard to come by one.

[Foxglove]

Firstly, that's not the reason why Garas has been targeted so often. Out of all the times he was targeted, I believe these two latest cases are the only ones where he was the ruler of Oligarch. In the other cases that was Catherine and he was General or Duke in stead.

From what I've seen in the game, the targeting of both Garas and Catherine has been related to what they can do to defend the city (raise militia; repair fortifications during the enemy refit cycle; rehire fresh defending units for the walls; distribute tax gold from the city; send military orders; etc). But by far the most common reason has been related to the raising of the peasants. I seem to think there was also some confusion about who could raise the militia too (Margrave/Duke/Ruler). I don't think the ability is actually that well understood as, apart from in Oligarch, I'm not sure many people have ever used it.

Thirdly, I disagree with your statement that assasinations are easier. Assasinations are very easy to defend against (not sure if they changed more than just the removal of the invisibility for infils, or also the percentage chances of success) by simply recruiting enough men etc. I speak from experience (have 2 assasins and 1 had  100 fame on both SF and infil for quite a while with skills at at least 80%) when I say that assasination attempts are very risky both in terms of the chance of failure and in terms of the consequences. I have the feeling they made escaping from jail a lot more difficult as well, meaning that capture often results in a ban and well after that it becomes a death trap to even go near the realm. Magic poses no such risk and from what I can tell there's no possible way to defend yourself against magical attacks. And based on how often they used this scroll on me, apparently it's not that hard to come by one.

I didn't really mean the level of effort that goes in to making the magical attack with a scroll, but rather all the background effort that goes into getting the scroll to the point where you can use it. It has to be created, gathered up by someone, carried to be sold or given to a noble (involving agreements to meet by the player of the adventurer and the player of the noble). Basically, there's a lot of background work that goes in to reaching a point where you can use a scroll for this specific purpose. I know there's a lot of effort that goes in to infiltrator training too, but that's largely work undertaken by one player. While the end use of a scroll actually involves a lot of work by several players that goes on in the background.

[Chenier]

Scrolls  and unique items are largely passive rewards, though. Lords get some just for being lords, adventurers get some just for hunting or gathering. Every now and then they get the option to create one, but that's still fairly passive: either you have the ingredients or you don't, the option won't stick around for you to get anything you lack. Then, high-ranking nobles are pretty much automatically targeted, and many adventurers just offer it for free or little, there's limited negotiation involved.

So while yea, it's true that a lot of work was needed in the background, most of it would have gotten done anyways, whereas with infiltrators, training your infiltration ability really just goes to one end, else you are wasting your time.

Gabanus rises a point, though. The risk to a failed (or partially failed) assassination attempt is a ban. Magic has no such risk, at most it might backfire I believe. Perhaps a chance of a possibility to place a ban on hostile casters would be legitimate.

[Vita`]

I think a risk of capture as a criminal (which allows judge to banish a char if they so wish) for failed magic usage sounds reasonable.

[Zakky]

Well you can't siege the last city without crippling the ruler anymore. TOs take forever so you need to prevent those peasants from spawning at all cost. The only one who can raise peasant militias is the RULER.

[Logar]

What are the %chances of a wizard offering a 'pain' scroll compared with the %chance of offering a healing scroll? I see more pain scrolls than healing (maybe coincidence).

If the chances were the same,  would that not balance it out a bit? Healing scrolls counter pain scrolls. You can cast healing scrolls on yourself even when wounded.

[Foxglove]

What are the %chances of a wizard offering a 'pain' scroll compared with the %chance of offering a healing scroll? I see more pain scrolls than healing (maybe coincidence).

If the chances were the same,  would that not balance it out a bit? Healing scrolls counter pain scrolls. You can cast healing scrolls on yourself even when wounded.

That sounds like a reasonable and easy solution to me. If you want protection from pain/wounding magic, collect healing magic. If scrolls that cause wounding are really much more common than ones that heal, then balance it out a bit.

[Zakky]

Healing scroll also can revive dead heroes. So it also counters death.

[Vita`]

I'm reasonably certain its based upon rarity/difficulty of the scroll, but don't take that as absolute gospel truth. Pain and Suffering doesn't wound, it removes all hours from the target. Though there is a roleplay about wounding as an explanation for hour loss, just no actual mechanic wounding. It's one of the most common scrolls by rarity. Healing is slightly more rare than pain and suffering. Accident scrolls, that cause mechanical wounds, are twice as rare. A quick spot check on EC demonstrates that while the proportions aren't exact to above, of the scrolls mentioned, accident scrolls are the least numerous, healing are in the middle, and pain and suffering the most common.

I also recently realized that one's spellcasting skill isn't having as much of an effect upon magic success as I thought it was, which should be increased.

[Logar]

Pain and Suffering doesn't wound, it removes all hours from the target.
Accident scrolls, that cause mechanical wounds...

Yes my mistake. A mix up of names. Scroll of accident (wounding) is the scroll I was refering to.

[MTYL]

Don't change magic on Belu or Dwillight. I think those are two most "magical" continents. I agree that it can see some change on other continents, it'll be still 3 continents with nerfed (or nearly disabled) magic and 2 left as is. I've never seen much use of magic on BT or Dwi anyhow. Perhaps I'm just unlucky.

[Anaris]

We've got multiple levers available to us, and right now, I'm definitely concerned about the ability of people with scrolls to lock a particular player out of playing their character for long periods of time. Thus, the changes to prevent serial wounding by magic will be game-wide.

We may also adjust the overall availability of scrolls on stable islands, which is something we can do separately.

[Gabanus family]

We've got multiple levers available to us, and right now, I'm definitely concerned about the ability of people with scrolls to lock a particular player out of playing their character for long periods of time. Thus, the changes to prevent serial wounding by magic will be game-wide.

We may also adjust the overall availability of scrolls on stable islands, which is something we can do separately.

Thank you!

Don't change magic on Belu or Dwillight. I think those are two most "magical" continents. I agree that it can see some change on other continents, it'll be still 3 continents with nerfed (or nearly disabled) magic and 2 left as is. I've never seen much use of magic on BT or Dwi anyhow. Perhaps I'm just unlucky.

You haven't seen magic on BT? In what realm are you?