Author Topic: Message group size too small  (Read 724 times)

Antonine

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #15: October 09, 2017, 10:16:46 AM »
I'm not in favor of excluding  nobles when it can be helped, but guilds are garbage and terrible solutions to just about anything.

In Vix Tiramora we use a guild for the entire southern alliance. We use it for sharing information and plans between realms. It works fine.

In the Colonies we have a Colonial Senate gold which covers the entire continent. It's great for trash talking and discussing island wide issues.

Guilds can be a pain but, if used for a specific purpose, they work fine.

Purrcious

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #16: October 09, 2017, 04:22:24 PM »
The question that needs to be asked here is What is the design intent of Message Groups and why does it have a limit on numbers. What is achieved by limiting the member count of message group?
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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #17: October 09, 2017, 04:38:07 PM »
The question that needs to be asked here is What is the design intent of Message Groups and why does it have a limit on numbers. What is achieved by limiting the member count of message group?

I think Anaris already explained that.
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Purrcious

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #18: October 09, 2017, 05:11:59 PM »
If you're trying to add more than a certain percentage of your realm to a message group, to the point that you're hitting the message group size limit, then you really need to be asking yourself, "Why does this need to be a message group? Why am I not just sending these messages to the entire realm? Why am I deliberately and repeatedly excluding a very small number of realmmates from these messages?"

If you can give me a very, very good reason, that is not due to a highly specific weird thing you're trying to do with your realm, but generalizable, I will consider adjusting the message group size limitations.

This only tells us what we need to do when we hit the number and then asks us for a reason.

If you want a Lords only senate message group then create a guild called "Senate of Fronen" in the capital city and get the lords to join it. If you're talking roleplay considerations then surely having a dedicated senate "building" in your capital is even more appropriate than a message group anyway?

But again, in my experience, locking regular knights and nobles out of important realm discussions is a great way to bore them and make them apathetic to the realm.

You can also create lords only referendums if you want to vote on something, or have votes cast publicly within your guild.

This actually tells us what we can do in our current predicament. Thanks!


One Scenario, If you are in a True Democracy government and all the discussion (military and economic) are held realm-wide then you are open to spying (though one can argue that it doesn't exist in this game or in this small playerbase) but then with a huge Message Group you can include the whole realm and gate the newly created accounts (while still having him see the standing orders) for a time until you're convinced he can be brought to the message group. Again, one can argue that this is the inherent weakness of that type of government and can actually be worked-around again with building a guild. Not mentioning the role-playing reasons.


So yeah, Purrcious guess building a guild is the answer and inevitable.
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Antonine

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #19: October 09, 2017, 07:17:56 PM »
The point of having a cap on message group sizes, as a proportion of the noble population of the realm, is precisely so that you can't just set up groups to include 90% of the nobles but exclude 10%. If you've got something that needs to be said to 90% of them then it might as well be said to 100% of them so that people aren't excluded and left out.

Vita

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #20: October 09, 2017, 07:41:45 PM »
One Scenario, If you are in a True Democracy government and all the discussion (military and economic) are held realm-wide then you are open to spying (though one can argue that it doesn't exist in this game or in this small playerbase) but then with a huge Message Group you can include the whole realm and gate the newly created accounts (while still having him see the standing orders) for a time until you're convinced he can be brought to the message group.
Why keep newly-created accounts away from the activity? This is exactly what bores new players away from the game. You're shooting your realm, and the game, in the foot by doing this. There is no in-game character knowledge that is ever worth keeping players from participating in the game, particularly new ones who are checking it out. And may never return if they find it to be a dead quiet game where you merely click to travel to other regions.

If you're concerned about spying, it's usually from pre-existing accounts. If *anyone* is *ever* creating new accounts to spy on a realm, they are breaking the Social Contract as a multi, and will have all their accounts permanently locked. Please report any you suspect of such cheating, so that the Titans can investigate further and if necessary, take action. I find that while spying does occur, the fear of spying causes far more damage than the spying ever does. And again, spies are not new accounts.

I haven't logged into the forum in almost a month, but this most egregious example of preventing new players from being involved with the realm is what finally saw me bother to do so. Please, please, please reconsider this, whether you're doing this very thing, or it was a mere thought scenario.

JeVondair

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #21: October 09, 2017, 08:07:34 PM »
The point of having a cap on message group sizes, as a proportion of the noble population of the realm, is precisely so that you can't just set up groups to include 90% of the nobles but exclude 10%. If you've got something that needs to be said to 90% of them then it might as well be said to 100% of them so that people aren't excluded and left out.


Vita's point


+1
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Chenier

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #22: October 09, 2017, 09:00:17 PM »
Why keep newly-created accounts away from the activity? This is exactly what bores new players away from the game. You're shooting your realm, and the game, in the foot by doing this. There is no in-game character knowledge that is ever worth keeping players from participating in the game, particularly new ones who are checking it out. And may never return if they find it to be a dead quiet game where you merely click to travel to other regions.

If you're concerned about spying, it's usually from pre-existing accounts. If *anyone* is *ever* creating new accounts to spy on a realm, they are breaking the Social Contract as a multi, and will have all their accounts permanently locked. Please report any you suspect of such cheating, so that the Titans can investigate further and if necessary, take action. I find that while spying does occur, the fear of spying causes far more damage than the spying ever does. And again, spies are not new accounts.

I haven't logged into the forum in almost a month, but this most egregious example of preventing new players from being involved with the realm is what finally saw me bother to do so. Please, please, please reconsider this, whether you're doing this very thing, or it was a mere thought scenario.

Yea, completely agreed. That's, like, the worst reason possible to justify message groups excluding but a handful, and it's basically the very reason why that restriction exists to begin with.

With the decline in player base, the loss of most "hardcore" players, and the 1 character per continent rule applied everywhere, spying should really, really not be making anyone worry right now, especially not towards new accounts and characters. If any of your realm mates will leak information to enemies, it's way more likely to be disgruntled veterans than newcomers.

Antonine

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #23: October 09, 2017, 09:37:30 PM »
And again, Vix Tiramora on EC is a thriving democracy where pretty much everything is discussed publicly. We have one military council message group for confidential discussions about the war and that's pretty much it. And I feel concerned that even that might be going too far in terms of secrecy.

Vix Tiramora has over 30 players and keeps players because there's always something happening and something being said, triggering arguments and debates that the whole realm can see and participate in. If you want to run a democratic realm, or indeed any kind of good realm that attracts and retains players, then that's how to do it.

Chenier

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #24: October 09, 2017, 09:53:51 PM »
And again, Vix Tiramora on EC is a thriving democracy where pretty much everything is discussed publicly. We have one military council message group for confidential discussions about the war and that's pretty much it. And I feel concerned that even that might be going too far in terms of secrecy.

Vix Tiramora has over 30 players and keeps players because there's always something happening and something being said, triggering arguments and debates that the whole realm can see and participate in. If you want to run a democratic realm, or indeed any kind of good realm that attracts and retains players, then that's how to do it.

Might head there. :P

I do think that every realm should try to engage as many people as possible. It doesn't even need to have anything to do with government settings, even a tyrant without elections can share and consult.

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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #25: October 10, 2017, 12:37:15 PM »
And again, Vix Tiramora on EC is a thriving democracy where pretty much everything is discussed publicly. We have one military council message group for confidential discussions about the war and that's pretty much it. And I feel concerned that even that might be going too far in terms of secrecy.

Vix Tiramora has over 30 players and keeps players because there's always something happening and something being said, triggering arguments and debates that the whole realm can see and participate in. If you want to run a democratic realm, or indeed any kind of good realm that attracts and retains players, then that's how to do it.

Exactly this. I think this was one of the reasons why Oligarch did so incredibly well also, because pretty much everything was discussed in public for all to see. When you remove most of the activity away from everyone, everyone will move away from you.
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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #26: October 10, 2017, 03:50:55 PM »
I couldn't agree more. I happen to have characters in both Vix Tiramora on EC and Swordfell on Dwillight, which are on the opposite sides of the spectrum. In the former everyone has a say in everything and everything is public knowledge - it has grown in size nearly twice (from ca 20 players to almost 40 at it's peak moment). In the latter noone has a say in anything and nothing is public knowledge - every new member either pauses their character, changes the realm or leaves battlemaster entirely and even old members are mostly inactive, logging in just enough to not be deleted by inactivity mechanics.

Engaging (I spelled it wrong, I think, "engageing"? "enganging"?) everyone in as much as possible is better than centrally controlling everything without a single word to realm at large. QED
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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #27: October 11, 2017, 03:16:11 AM »
I wholeheartedly agree with engaging the entire realm but mainly I was trying to figure out how to make a republic work and engage the lords of regions, but... I think I have figured out that its the wrong way to do things and I am going to involve more in the open channels.
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Re: Message group size too small
« Reply #28: October 12, 2017, 11:11:51 AM »
I've moved the continuing off topic discussion to the Dwilight Board under Swordfell  https://forum.battlemaster.org/index.php/topic,7983.0.html
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