Author Topic: The War  (Read 66951 times)

Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #75: November 06, 2017, 11:59:05 AM »
Surprise surprise, but this was mainly their own mistake. They had 33% more forces but couldn't use it properly.

Also, Highmarch is way cooler, newer and hip, but then again, yeah go to Vix  ;D
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Barrett

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Re: The War
« Reply #76: November 06, 2017, 12:10:58 PM »
I quite literally expected Chester to die in this battle after willingly volunteering him to take the full force of the enemy's attacks for a turn but nope! He takes about 5000 hits worth of arrows which kills off his entire unit and he's just WOUNDED! He's practically unkillable at this point! :O
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Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #77: November 06, 2017, 12:16:30 PM »
Chester is a hero?
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Barrett

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Re: The War
« Reply #78: November 06, 2017, 12:25:28 PM »
Yeah I said he was a week or so ago. :P

I was fully expecting to make a awesome heroic death this way.
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Eduardo Almighty

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Re: The War
« Reply #79: November 06, 2017, 12:42:39 PM »
It seems everyone is using this kind os strategy now... with some units in the front line to take massive damages or to force the army to move foward. Well, it worked in open field. Against walls? Nah...
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Anderfhstim

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Re: The War
« Reply #80: November 06, 2017, 01:03:52 PM »
It seems everyone is using this kind os strategy now... with some units in the front line to take massive damages or to force the army to move foward. Well, it worked in open field. Against walls? Nah...
People are abusing the fact archers only attack the closest unit. This should be changed ASAP.

Eduardo Almighty

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Re: The War
« Reply #81: November 06, 2017, 01:16:38 PM »
So this is an exploitation of the mechanics... like leaving rogue regions rogue to avoid taxes while the realm continues taking other regions in the front.

Even worse.
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Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #82: November 06, 2017, 01:30:23 PM »
Both sides are using the same options within the battle mechanics. I'm not sure this is called an abuse as it was an intentional part of the battle mechanics if I recall correctly. If one is to blame, I believe I was the first to implement this strategy 1.5 years ago or so already. Oligarch required any edge against Sirion and so we used some different settings and tactics including this one as I noticed this archer behavior when analysing some battle reports.

If you want this changed, I suggest you make a feature request on this forum and hear what the devs have to say.

As I see it, this part is not a bug, but an intentional decision and thus you should be able to use it. Sirion leaving regions rogue goes probably even further than this, but that too is a concious decision well within the boundaries of intentional mechanics and I see nothing wrong with it from an OOC perspective.
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Eduardo Almighty

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Re: The War
« Reply #83: November 06, 2017, 01:35:28 PM »
Yes, there is definitely always a difference of what you can do and what you think morally accepted to do. Realistically, I do not think 1147 archers would all shoot at the same time against a single unit, just as I do not think you'd think it right to let your people starve to gain a military advantage... unless you're Stalin or Mao.
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Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #84: November 06, 2017, 02:15:06 PM »
Yes, there is definitely always a difference of what you can do and what you think morally accepted to do. Realistically, I do not think 1147 archers would all shoot at the same time against a single unit, just as I do not think you'd think it right to let your people starve to gain a military advantage... unless you're Stalin or Mao.

Well removing food of regions that are being TO'd to starve an enemy has been done since it was possible I think, but you can certainly question the ethics of such decisions. And Garas has become a monster in terms of what he'll do for victory, which given how his story line evolved and what was done to him makes absolute sense. If starving 5000 peasants meant he'd gain a good victory, he'd do it in a heart beat.

Now on the matter of 1147 archers firing on a single unit, you can wonder how realistic it is, but it was an intentional game mechanic. If we want it more realistic we should add a feature request to allow some more complexity into the matter if that's at all possible code wise. And this does work two ways, as both sides can utilize the tactic. The big downside is however that the volunteer to take on the arrows is always wounded, if not killed.

There are also two distinct differences, what do you as a player see as morally accepted in terms of working within the game mechanics and what does your character view as acceptable. I can assure you that some in the south have been fighting Garas' more brutal ideas and plans, claiming it lacks honor. So that definately exists on a character level.
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Eduardo Almighty

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Re: The War
« Reply #85: November 06, 2017, 02:23:43 PM »
Quote
There are also two distinct differences, what do you as a player see as morally accepted in terms of working within the game mechanics and what does your character view as acceptable. I can assure you that some in the south have been fighting Garas' more brutal ideas and plans, claiming it lacks honor. So that definately exists on a character level.

I have 0 problems with characters. However, it seems more with player's decisions. There is a difference when you know that the mechanics will punish you for being too big and instead of following the mechanics (imposed to make the game more fun for everyone), you decide to leave 4 rogue regions behind you to take Oligarch, for example. I have not seen characters justifying this... only players finding ways to dodge the changes made to make the game more dynamic.

Quote
Now on the matter of 1147 archers firing on a single unit, you can wonder how realistic it is, but it was an intentional game mechanic. If we want it more realistic we should add a feature request to allow some more complexity into the matter if that's at all possible code wise. And this does work two ways, as both sides can utilize the tactic. The big downside is however that the volunteer to take on the arrows is always wounded, if not killed.

I'm playing more for RP reasons than military ones, so I will not bother to fill a request. I just think that two sides using a crazy mechanic does no good to anyone.

EDIT: It's easy to make a character to follow some of your player's choices in face of different mechanics. I'm not a saint... I'am playing BM since 2006 and playing RPG's for a long time, being GM or Storytelller. When you see a winning opportunity, your character's morale is easily adjustable if the prize seems satisfactory to you. And that's not personal, I did not even know you had found out about the archers. It's more of a generic and impersonal complaint because I've been through this situation many times in RPGs.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2017, 02:44:13 PM by Eduardo Almighty »
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
Serpentis again!

Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #86: November 06, 2017, 02:56:18 PM »
I have 0 problems with characters. However, it seems more with player's decisions. There is a difference when you know that the mechanics will punish you for being too big and instead of following the mechanics (imposed to make the game more fun for everyone), you decide to leave 4 rogue regions behind you to take Oligarch, for example. I have not seen characters justifying this... only players finding ways to dodge the changes made to make the game more dynamic.

In this case you should certainly call them out IC and keep repeating why IC this makes no sense. Perhaps even add an OOC letter pointing out the weirdness.

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I'm playing more for RP reasons than military ones, so I will not bother to fill a request. I just think that two sides using a crazy mechanic does no good to anyone.

I am playing mostly for RP reasons as well and you'll find that Garas is my only truly 'military' character. In fact, Goriad in Astrum has repeatedly protested and objected to people using tactics that he finds dishonorable and in his case against his faith, no matter the IC advantages it might otherwise bring. One of such was a while ago when the General proposed to starve unterstrom rather than sieging it. I have had realms fail because I refused to take IC advantages where I could, but Garas' RP has gone very far and at this point he is more of a broken man, fueled with hatred. In fact, there is a referendum in Highmarch because of him, as he ordered a brutal TO of Tokat even though the peasants were friendly and loyal to Highmarch (IC it makes sense to always do a friendly TO here, but RP wise Garas just wants to kill and burn those who wronged him, who burned him alive through magic and who took his family and realm away. This hatred and desparation also mean he will use anything and everything to accomplish that goal). Plus the whole Oligarch foundation was to my personal detriment as Garas was making 'me' 2200 gold a week in Sirion, but it was boring for everyone else.

Quote
EDIT: It's easy to make a character to follow some of your player's choices in face of different mechanics. I'm not a saint... I'am playing BM since 2006 and playing RPG's for a long time, being GM or Storytelller. When you see a winning opportunity, your character's morale is easily adjustable if the prize seems satisfactory to you. And that's not personal, I did not even know you had found out about the archers. It's more of a generic and impersonal complaint because I've been through this situation many times in RPGs.

I actually generally steer away from that (see above) but do understand your point here and agree that two sides using this tactic of the archers can somewhat look silly and it will also depend on how many dedicated volunteers for guarenteed wounded state you have etc. If it is changed, I won't complain, but while it is not, Garas will use it, but Goriad certainly wouldn't for instance (although he doesn't know that much about military to begin with, just the basics).
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Eduardo Almighty

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Re: The War
« Reply #87: November 06, 2017, 03:15:31 PM »
Quote
In this case you should certainly call them out IC and keep repeating why IC this makes no sense. Perhaps even add an OOC letter pointing out the weirdness.

Yeah. Sent the first long letter answering the General about this and other situations. It seems everyone is too busy with the battle... or, you know, discussing my punishment behind closed doors. How many years have been passed since they first took Oligarch (when Erik appointed a Lord there because the region joined my MAJESTIC AVAMAR) and the discussion of creating a new kingdom from Sirion? Nothing makes me believe that they are so slow and incompetent. More like accommodated to the point of finding ways to escape the new mechanics.
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
Serpentis again!

Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #88: November 06, 2017, 03:25:06 PM »
I won't dispute that there are players in this game who play the way you describe, but at the same time I will dispute that all play like this. It might even be so that some follow this line of logic untill you point out how rediculous it is.

It may be that a few of the leaders in Sirion operate this way, but between Xavax and Sirion there are 48 nobles in the realm. Surely if you address this matter publicly there will be others to join in. I do hope your letter was sent to the entire realm and not just the General?

And when we are talking about creating new realms from Sirion, this is simply actively and successfully blocked by a few. It's been like that for as long as I can remember. Now the new mechanics might force some of them to make different decisions, but I still doubt it. I do agree that leaving some lands rogue because of the limiting game mechanic is rather in contrast with the reasoning they want to keep Sirion together as one realm and won't allow seccessions. So no to letting a city go, but yes to keeping 4 regions rogue in your own lands...I understand your point here, I do, but these are best addressed IC I think.
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MTYL

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Re: The War
« Reply #89: November 06, 2017, 03:43:04 PM »
To prove Gabanus player's point - I too nerf most of my characters. For instance when I as a player know that something would be the best course of action but my character has no way of knowing that or knows that but wouldn't allow himself to act on that knowledge due to honour or something like that.

But then again I have some characters I go all Gary Stu with and utilize 100% of my OOC knowledge, cause they're just so damn perfect.
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