Author Topic: The War  (Read 13996 times)

Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #240: August 09, 2018, 09:19:17 AM »
The irony is that Edvard's the one insisting on being in this position. Highmarch always fought to have the North let Fallangard be, but... we grew tired of them constantly helping Vix out against us, and them looting Winkamus was the last straw.

That's nonsense. Maybe Mathias didn't want to war them, but Caligus/north would've definately moved anyway. Highmarch is allowed to fight, but I doubt you actually decide on the targets.
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Chenier

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Re: The War
« Reply #241: August 09, 2018, 01:34:59 PM »
Sure, you think that.  8)

In any case, I was mostly referring to the diplomatic situation. Mathias had negotiated an arrangement for them where they would have lost nothing. And then even when they refused it, Highmarch had not taken any actions against them until they started helping with TOs against us, at which point we only aided others TO Supra, since Supra borders our capital. Had they not looted Winkamus, we'd probably not be looting Mashhad right now. Can't say for sure, we were getting pretty annoyed by then already, but that really put everyone on the same page.

Foxglove

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Re: The War
« Reply #242: August 09, 2018, 03:11:44 PM »
That's nonsense. Maybe Mathias didn't want to war them, but Caligus/north would've definately moved anyway.

No, the north wouldn't. Thomas spent several real life months arranging the Highmarch/Fallangard treaty with the north and getting Caligus onboard. Had Fallangard accepted the treaty, it could have walked away from the war losing nothing and it wouldn't have been under any threat from the north for the duration of the war. Once the war is over, Fallangard and Caligus would then have been left to sort out the issues between them in what ever way they saw fit (that was written in to a previous version of the treaty, but I can't remember the wording. I rewrote that treaty so many times....).

Obviously, I can't predict whether Caligus and Fallangard would have ended up fighting again. Relations between Fallangard and Caligus might have improved under influence on Caligus from some of the other northern realms. But Highmarch was incredibly protective of Fallangard throughout the treaty negotiations, so Highmarch would probably have sided with Fallangard in a Fallangard/Caligus war. But it's hard to predict these 'might have been' scenarios.

Fallangard made a huge mistake in rejecting the treaty (I know they probably don't see it that way, however) and in then burning their bridges with Highmarch.

Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #243: August 09, 2018, 06:20:46 PM »
I was speaking in the case that they had already rejected your treaty.

Sure they had the option to betray their allies and lose no lands in the short term, but I would not consider them rejecting it to be the wrong move. Some prefer to fight and stand by their allies rather than turn on them. If you look solely at the realm regions etc, yes then it was a huge mistake, but otherwise it wasn't (or doesn't have to be depending on your priorities and your char's sense of honor etc).
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Re: The War
« Reply #244: August 09, 2018, 06:26:47 PM »
No, the north wouldn't. Thomas spent several real life months arranging the Highmarch/Fallangard treaty with the north and getting Caligus onboard. Had Fallangard accepted the treaty, it could have walked away from the war losing nothing and it wouldn't have been under any threat from the north for the duration of the war. Once the war is over, Fallangard and Caligus would then have been left to sort out the issues between them in what ever way they saw fit (that was written in to a previous version of the treaty, but I can't remember the wording. I rewrote that treaty so many times....).

Obviously, I can't predict whether Caligus and Fallangard would have ended up fighting again. Relations between Fallangard and Caligus might have improved under influence on Caligus from some of the other northern realms. But Highmarch was incredibly protective of Fallangard throughout the treaty negotiations, so Highmarch would probably have sided with Fallangard in a Fallangard/Caligus war. But it's hard to predict these 'might have been' scenarios.

Fallangard made a huge mistake in rejecting the treaty (I know they probably don't see it that way, however) and in then burning their bridges with Highmarch.

Aramon was in support of giving Fallangard an easy way out of the war, and would have likely supported them later if Caligus had moved against them, given that they're historically allies of Greater Xavax. If Highmarch and Caligus can bury the hatchet (even temporarily) given the history there, there was hope for Fallangard and Caligus.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 06:33:22 PM by [email protected] »

Chenier

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Re: The War
« Reply #245: August 09, 2018, 07:11:24 PM »
Well, it came down to picking their allies: Vix and Perdan, or Highmarch? The rest were irrelevant. Heck at first, it was really: Highmarch or Perdan?

But Edvard had too much resentment for Caligus. He was unwilling to give them anything, even if he had no say in that, given all the ceded lands currently belonged to Highmarch, and Highmarch was going through with it regardless.

It wasn't just a bad move because they'll lose regions out of it (and possibly their entire existence if they keep at it), but they are also alienating their most devout ally: Highmarch. Highmarch was willing to give more to the North so that Fallangard wouldn't have to. It was willing to put the whole treaty, and thus its survival, in peril, just to give Fallangard a chance. It then went to great pains to tiptoe around Fallangard.

Highmarch showed more dedication to Fallangard than it could ever expect from the realms it chose to stay aligned to. They chose to be Vix's tools rather than remain Highmarch's brothers. They didn't have to betray Highmarch, they chose to. Staying completely neutral in the conflict was totally a possibility. As was soloing Caligus.

Edvard had a lot of choices, and all of them were better for Fallangard than the one he picked. Attacking Highmarch directly, and continuously escalating the pressure against them... was a bad move, all-around.

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Re: The War
« Reply #246: August 09, 2018, 07:17:17 PM »
Just because Highmarch turned traitor and decided to betray their allies does not mean that Fallangard has to choose the same path.

They chose to honor their alliances and hold to them, even when matters got difficult.

There is no question that Highmarch's betrayal is the greatest shift in the North-South War since the CREATION of Highmarch.

But there are trends in war.  Sometimes the lines go north.  Sometimes they go south.  Right now they are going south, and the times are tough for Perdan, Vix, and Fallangard.

There's no question there.

But I think there is more fight in the South than the North expects.

Unfortunately, a good bit of that fight is not fighting the North...:(

Vita

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Re: The War
« Reply #247: August 09, 2018, 07:27:35 PM »
It's not the first time Fallangard has screwed their most devout ally.

Chenier

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Re: The War
« Reply #248: August 09, 2018, 08:25:01 PM »
Of course, they were free to chose as they willed. Highmarch viewed them as brothers, not vassals.

It remains a poor decision on all accounts, in my books, about the worst they could have made.

Highmarch turned on Perdan, and Perdan only. Vix's decision to stand by Perdan was much more grounded than Fallangard's decision to do the same. Highmarch's new position made Vix vulnerable, but did no such thing to Fallangard. The only way Fallangard could come out losing from Highmarch' flip is by going after Highmarch themselves. They really shot themselves in the foot. They could have went to attack Caligus, draw forces away from Vix and Highmarch, instead of joining in with Vix and looting Winkamus.

And it's not like they'll gain anything from this. They picked the losing side, and put themselves in an extremely vulnerable position doing so.

Zakky

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Re: The War
« Reply #249: August 09, 2018, 09:18:20 PM »
Of course, they were free to chose as they willed. Highmarch viewed them as brothers, not vassals.

It remains a poor decision on all accounts, in my books, about the worst they could have made.

Highmarch turned on Perdan, and Perdan only. Vix's decision to stand by Perdan was much more grounded than Fallangard's decision to do the same. Highmarch's new position made Vix vulnerable, but did no such thing to Fallangard. The only way Fallangard could come out losing from Highmarch' flip is by going after Highmarch themselves. They really shot themselves in the foot. They could have went to attack Caligus, draw forces away from Vix and Highmarch, instead of joining in with Vix and looting Winkamus.

And it's not like they'll gain anything from this. They picked the losing side, and put themselves in an extremely vulnerable position doing so.

But anyone that goes against you makes their decisions bad.  ;D

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Re: The War
« Reply #250: August 09, 2018, 09:36:42 PM »
Can't we all just agree that Octavian is best suited to rule the EC as god emperor?
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Chenier

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Re: The War
« Reply #251: August 10, 2018, 03:31:58 PM »
But anyone that goes against you makes their decisions bad.  ;D

Well, of course, but in Fallangard's case it was particularly bad.

You don't see me saying how bad it was for Perleone, after all. It was still a bad decision, but not as much. ;)

Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #252: August 10, 2018, 08:09:56 PM »
Turned only on Perdan? Who are you trying to kid here? Don't get me wrong I enjoy the propaganda attempt, byt the north would go after Vix anyway. They'd be screwed if they'd let the north destroy Perdan first, let alone the moral dilemma.

And I still believe FG did not make a foolish decision. They chose to honor their allies rather than betray them. There's a good argument for that. FG felt HM's action a betrayel and acted accordingly. Not sure why that's so bad? Unless of course you're HM.

*Edit you also forget that everyone has seen the deal you made. Most Perdanese lands are decided by tye north and thus go to Epponlyn. FG's lands go to Caligus and if you take more land so will Domus. The only expansion option for HM is into Vix. So yeah your deal is not just anti Perdan is it?
« Last Edit: August 10, 2018, 08:12:11 PM by Gabanus family »
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Chenier

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Re: The War
« Reply #253: August 10, 2018, 08:18:27 PM »
Nah, I don't forgot that other saw the treaty. You just have zero understanding of what's going on. But to elaborate would be to reveal too much that isn't public.

Highmarch was only going to declare war on Perdan. Vix had a choice, and it made that choice before we even did anything. Did Vix have good reason to go to war with Highmarch? Sure. But, unlike Perdan, they had the choice not to.

Gabanus family

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Re: The War
« Reply #254: August 10, 2018, 10:18:42 PM »
Sure. There was no choice. The hatred towards Vix in the north is large enough. What HM does beyond warring Perdan is irrelevant cause had Vix not aided, they'd be next no matter what.

You flipped, fine, but can you please stop making it sound like you flipped for the betterment of Vix or FG?  :o

You want Perdan dead, fine, but others not agreeing with that and choosing their allies is not a bad decision. Maybe in terms of lands...but there are so many other factors at play.
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