Author Topic: Is it possible to remove a vacant Founder rank in a guild?  (Read 3784 times)

T0mislav

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Is it possible to remove a vacant Founder rank in a guild?

Wimpie

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No, it rightfully belongs to the actual Founder. It can not be reclaimed by anyone else, nor removed.
Osgar (Thalmarkin, BT), Jeames (Perleone, EC)
PAUSED: Nasgar (Avernus, DWI), Jari (Outer Tilog, COL)

T0mislav

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Even the Founder can not remove the rank?

Anaris

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That is correct.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Wimpie

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May I ask why you would want to do that? Just curiosity.
Osgar (Thalmarkin, BT), Jeames (Perleone, EC)
PAUSED: Nasgar (Avernus, DWI), Jari (Outer Tilog, COL)

T0mislav

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Well... there can happen situation where group of Lords may want to form an organization and guild for the organization where they all will truly have equal power and where anyone accepted to the rank will also truly have equal power (as long as founder rank can not be deleted the one who is official founder of the guild can always enforce himself above other - even eject other from the organization).

Guess I need to create another Feature Request :)

Wimpie

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I don't think why we will ever implement this though  ;D
Osgar (Thalmarkin, BT), Jeames (Perleone, EC)
PAUSED: Nasgar (Avernus, DWI), Jari (Outer Tilog, COL)

Anaris

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We are not going to implement a feature that allows creation of a special kind of Guild that doesn't allow reclaiming the Founder rank.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

T0mislav

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And what about allowing Founder to promote other to the rank making them Co Founders so they all have option to reaffirm themselves?
Well... I guess that in that case talking about "Founder" or "Co Founders" would not be the best choice of words... Maybe it would be better to name them as "Guild Master" or "Guild Masters".

For religions (considering that founder becomes priest, loses lordship and is considered as first prophet) present Founder rules are solid... but non religious Guilds really miss the option that would allow that more then one person can have truly equal powers at top.

Would it be considered feature that would make Founder of a Guild (non religion) named as "Guild Master" with option to appoint other to the position where all appointed would be considered as "Guild Masters" and would have option to reaffirm?

This would allow to group of Nobles to form a guild where they all would be truly equal (without having single person in form of Founder who can overrule them all, or even eject from the guild, at any time).
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:56:25 PM by T0mislav »

Anaris

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Nope. There is one Founder: the character who founded the guild. No one else founded the guild, so no one else ever gets that rank.

It's really, really easy to have equal powers at the top: just leave the Founder rank empty. The Founder can always, trivially, demote himself to any other rank in the guild.

Yes, this means you have to trust the Founder of your guild. If that's a terrifying thought to you, you're playing the wrong game.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

T0mislav

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Medieval Feudal societies were full of politics, intrigues and conspiracies... "Be Trusting" was not the best quality on courts.
If group of Rulers would decide to create common Guild they would definitely never trust each other to the point to grant powers to one of them to overrule them all - we all know the results of making "the one ring to rule them all" ;)

Well... it was absolutely unnecessary to drag "don't like - don't play" argument... I was only benevolently suggesting Feature that can improve the game.
Simple not implementing it if you dislike it was more then enough...
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 09:23:10 PM by T0mislav »

Anaris

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Feudalism was built on trust.

Honour is all about trust.

Medieval society was heavily dependent on networks of people who knew and trusted each other. Anyone who didn't trust anyone, and made that clear through his actions, would soon find himself shut out of most real power.

Furthermore, regardless of what medieval society was like, BattleMaster is a game about playing with people. We are not particularly interested in making it possible for you to have 100% mathematically provable certainty that a given guild will never, ever be usurped from you by the person who founded it. If you didn't trust him to be the founder, you should have founded it yourself.

Build relationships. Form a real connection with another person. Trust them, and get them to trust you.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

T0mislav

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Feudalism was built on trust.
Feudalism was built on power to control land that can generate resources which can produce wealth that can purchase more power to protect the land and possibly expand property.

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Medieval society was heavily dependent on networks of people
Correct... but the second part
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who knew and trusted each other
knew each other - mostly yes, but trusted - not at all... they formed strategical alliances to be stronger but their "trust" was built purely on temporary interests - mostly they depended of each other in trade in goods they needed and couldn't find anywhere else or they depended of each other in defense... but if by some chance they would find some other source to satisfy their needs they often in blink of eye betrayed each other... not to mention constant intrigues and conspiracies - more of them died poison by friends or with friend's knife in the back then by enemies in battle or of natural cause.

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Anyone who didn't trust anyone, and made that clear through his actions, would soon find himself shut out of most real power.
They were very clearly showing to each other that they do not trust each other... It was not lack of trust that could strip one of power but it was any kind of showing weakness - actually, showing too much trust in someone was great weakness that mostly resulted with having a knife stuck in the back.

Considering
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We are not particularly interested in making it possible for you to have 100% mathematically provable certainty that a given guild will never, ever be usurped from you by the person who founded it.
You obviously missed point of my feature request... It was never directed to ensure that given guild will never be usurped back by the person who founded it, but it was simply directed to allow that more then one person can found the Guild (or that more then one person can be appointed by the Founder to be considered as Founders as well).
OOC speaking - imagine that you want to found a bank with a partner and both of you will invest 50%-50%. - Would you ever consider to invest your money for the bank to be founded in his name? Or do you think that he would ever invest in it just for it to be found in your name? Or it is maybe the most likely that you bough would insist to be listed as legal owners? And imagine then that in couple of years you decide to sell your 50% share to third party and retire... Do you think that the third party would accept to make investment without being officially listed as Co Owner or if he knows that you can at any time simply reclaim your ownership and remove him without any compensation? That is not be matter of trust or distrust but of bare reason...
But if the game mechanisms are deliberately directed to enforce people to IC trust each other even about matters where OOC would never be place for trust... fair enough...
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 12:51:24 AM by T0mislav »

Anaris

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Just because Lord Kepler founded the Guild of Lords doesn't mean he will always hold the Founder rank. He can demote himself to any rank you want.

If you want a guild with everyone at the same rank, you can have that.

What you can't have is a guild with no Founder rank, or a guild with more than one person holding the Founder rank.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan