Author Topic: Dwilight monsters destroy realms  (Read 9664 times)

Renodin

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #15: November 08, 2017, 02:12:28 PM »
Nahh, a good bit after that.

Chenier

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #16: November 08, 2017, 02:27:33 PM »
Nahh, a good bit after that.

You'd have to be a tad more specific. Off the top of my head, the wars I remember Madina participating in are the war against D'Hara to back up Melodia, way back in the very early days of Madina, and the war with Aurvandil+Falkirk. I believe Madina might have nominally declared war on Luria when the west was closed and we tried to relocate Barca, but I'm not even sure of that, and I don't remember any meaningful involvement.

Fissoa's about the same, minus the conflict with D'Hara and plus a few very short-lived skirmishes with Luria.

Madina is obsessed with regaining their whole island, and then some, but it just doesn't have the nobles for it. It should settle for a more post-Aurvandil division, where D'Hara held the northern rurals of the Madinian isles, which is turn would allow D'Hara to stop trying to expand eastwards into Luria like lunatics. Or even better, just ditch that dump of an island, along with Fissoa, and go settle further North, around where Asylon and Caerwyn were. Or where Westfold was.
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Bronnen

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #17: November 08, 2017, 05:07:19 PM »
I keep trying to convince them to just migrate to Swordfell en masse and just take it since Swordfell has like no defenses whatsoever.

Chenier

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #18: November 08, 2017, 07:43:35 PM »
Dwilight would have been much better off if, instead of closing the west, they had removed everything South of Barca and South of Askileon (i.e. half of Luria, all of Fissoa, all of Madina, and whatever was in Candiels at the time). Now, I'd have cut things even further north, with Shokalom being the southern limit in the West and the Desert-South Divide being the southern limit in the East, with D'Hara pushed North between Gold Sea and Blossomer sea.

A pity because the western realms that got removed were dynamic, while the Southern realms right now are not. Just a handful of realms struggling without a purpose. The draft Antonine did that simply adds cities would already be a huge boon though.

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Anaris

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #19: November 08, 2017, 07:47:07 PM »
I agree with the general thrust of that; however, I think that would likely not have moved enough people (even if everyone there had moved, rather than leaving).

Unfortunately, the geography of Dwilight overall is not well-suited to significant swings in player population without a strong, positive, and immediate incentive to cluster—which the game as a whole currently lacks.
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CryptCypher

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #20: November 08, 2017, 07:55:35 PM »
I'd go so far as to say the game mechanics are particularly prohibitive toward such clustering. Ah, gentle equilibrium... Too much clustering and you get ultra-dense mega-realms and a whole lot of nothing beside. Too little clustering and you get a bunch of piss-poor, starving, undermanned micro-realms.
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Battleplaster

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #21: November 08, 2017, 08:43:56 PM »
I get that with the decline of the player base a method was sought to nudge realms closer together; west part was closed off, large increase of monster spawns, sea travel, etc.

Well, ever since those days I have seen the realm player base drop from 30+ to 15+, definitely not increasing continent wide.
 It's all fine and dandy to shout generics as 'attract more players' and 'just relocate' but that is not the issue at hand. The 'solution' is not generating the desired effect and is actually driving more players off than keeping them.

As I stated earlier, most players that up and leave that I spoke to simply state they get no enjoyment from the PvE environment that is now prominent on the continent.

As for the statement 'stop expanding', begs the question 'when is it too much?'. Not too long ago we were at 2 nobles per region ratio and still had rogue units combined over 40.000 combat strength ravaging the regions. If limitation of regions is the aim ( per realm based upon amount of nobles, for example )  then surely another solution can be found.

 As for this thread, my aim is mainly to signal the devs and get some discussion started. I understand that per realm and per person the experience might differ, but I felt it necessary to report the signals I have received these last few months (year or so?).

And yes, you might disagree, but no, that is no excuse to be an ass about it. =)

Anderfhstim

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #22: November 08, 2017, 09:19:04 PM »
Didn't someone mention that the ratio has always been 3?

Also, those people are stupid then. They just wanted an excuse to leave and they decided to blame PvE.

They did nothing when there weren't monsters anyway.

I don't think monsters are going away so you as a player will have to find another way to play around it.

Dwilight isn't the only continent. If you want pure PvP, you can join East Continent. Testing islands are for well testing. Can't complain when you are experiencing questionable mechanics on a testing island.

CryptCypher

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #23: November 08, 2017, 09:19:26 PM »
? Don't see anyone being an ass about anything ??? Discussion has been pretty neutral and objective, unless I'm missing something.
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CryptCypher

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #24: November 08, 2017, 09:21:46 PM »
</Devil's Advocate>

...Yet you must remember that Dwilight is also the *only* truly RP-enforced island. For the more hardcore type of player, moving to another island would be a significant downgrade. Honestly, until Xavax/EC, that was my own experience with every character outside of Dwilight since 2011.
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Chenier

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #25: November 08, 2017, 09:33:14 PM »
I agree with the general thrust of that; however, I think that would likely not have moved enough people (even if everyone there had moved, rather than leaving).

Unfortunately, the geography of Dwilight overall is not well-suited to significant swings in player population without a strong, positive, and immediate incentive to cluster—which the game as a whole currently lacks.

Combined with the current approach it could have had a more interesting result. But that's all hypothesizing and what's done is done, I concede.

I get that with the decline of the player base a method was sought to nudge realms closer together; west part was closed off, large increase of monster spawns, sea travel, etc.

Well, ever since those days I have seen the realm player base drop from 30+ to 15+, definitely not increasing continent wide.
 It's all fine and dandy to shout generics as 'attract more players' and 'just relocate' but that is not the issue at hand. The 'solution' is not generating the desired effect and is actually driving more players off than keeping them.

As I stated earlier, most players that up and leave that I spoke to simply state they get no enjoyment from the PvE environment that is now prominent on the continent.

As for the statement 'stop expanding', begs the question 'when is it too much?'. Not too long ago we were at 2 nobles per region ratio and still had rogue units combined over 40.000 combat strength ravaging the regions. If limitation of regions is the aim ( per realm based upon amount of nobles, for example )  then surely another solution can be found.

 As for this thread, my aim is mainly to signal the devs and get some discussion started. I understand that per realm and per person the experience might differ, but I felt it necessary to report the signals I have received these last few months (year or so?).

And yes, you might disagree, but no, that is no excuse to be an ass about it. =)

Explicitely naming your realm would help place it in context.

Also keep in mind that the monster code was bugged. For a long time, they no longer spawned, rallied, or moved. All while the realms kept spreading thinner, and thinner, and thinner. Then, the floodgates were opened. So the last invasion was not purely the density-triggered spawns, but also just the general accumulation from all that unintended peace time that was had.

Then, well... there comes a point where it's up to players to adapt to challenges brought before them. Westgard, which has a mobile army oscillating between 5000 and 20000 CS, was pro-active in this regard. When we realized that the monsters were bugged, we rushed to kill as many of them as we could. We killed the tens of thousands of CS in our realm, and then moved into rogue regions nearby, to kill tens of thousands more. We knew that as soon as the bug was fixed, they'd head for us, so we tried to lessen the load. Then, when the bug was announced to be fixed, we immediately rushed to finish our refit, move to Sabadell, and dig in. There, we stood strong, and faced about 20k of rogues every single turn, with our army of about half that, and we killed... gee, 80k CS? More? Until equipment wear wore us down to about 5k and a new 30k horde started coming in, at which point we pulled back, made more stands in Gelene Outskirts, rinse and repeat.

Point is, had we lazily just settled for taking easy regions, and then sit on our asses, we'd have lost most of our regions in this last invasion. But we made bold strategic decisions, made the right tactical calls, and with luck on our side, we came out with minimal territorial losses and an incredible military performance. So if southern realms are losing a lot of ground to the monsters, it's worth asking: why? Is it because they are facing forces that are too great? Or because they aren't making the right calls. Because for the latter, well, people deserve the consequences of their own (in)action. Because if Westgard, that has virtually no fortified location, no choke point, and is alone out in the middle of the rogue lands between a lot of the spawns and their destinations, if that realm can make it with minimal losses, why can't everyone else? Astrum did fine too. Avernus did mostly, but then again they had decided to send their army to loot rogue regions back when they hadn't even retaken all of their lands back yet. Arnor had almost died the previous time, and they came out fine. Same with Luria.

I mean, really, nobody really lost much this time around, despite the issue with the bug. Madina seems to have lost the most, but still didn't lose THAT much.

And it again returns to my original counter-argument: what else would those realms do, anyways? Back then, when the west was removed, those realms were doing a ton of things. The Moot had somewhat imploded with Terran breaking up and D'Hara annexing most of it, the north was ablaze as well, and western cities also contributed to balance with the eastern ones (the loss of the western cities seriously crippled D'Hara, for example, making Lurian hegemony greater). But none of that applies to the far-South. Madina was only dynamic during the early settlers phase. It then quickly ceased to ever be relevant again. Same for Fissoa, though that realm had a very slightly greater involvement in international politics. No matter how far back you go, up to basically a decade ago, Madina isn't relevant. Even if we go as little back as possible, before the rogue code was changed to make the rogues target low-density realms more, what was Madina doing? PVE! Madina was, wholly on its own initiative, trying to expand West as much as it could, against increasingly impossible odds. So what's the difference? Back when Madina wasn't targeted, it was going out seeking PvE. Now that it's targeted for being too sparsely populated, it's doing PvE. The code changed nothing, other than placing the equilibrium at Madina no longer holding its whole islands anymore. Which in my book is fine, the more a realm is spread, the harder it is for it to be dynamic. Lower incentives do undertake projects due to everyone having titles, increased risk-aversion (for the same reason), decrease capacity to project power abroad, etc.
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Ketchum

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #26: November 09, 2017, 02:54:27 AM »
The monsters are meant to force people to LEAVE!

If people would stop sticking out in Fissoa, Madina, D'Hara and them, then the monsters would stop and people could go to war with one another again.
When my character Gary who led Morek was threaten with destruction by Mayhem and Avernus, I had thoughts of settling in the west. I could not believe my character could gather so much support to survive. It was a tough time when Gary became Morek Ruler with the disappearance of the previous Ruler and capital loss.

If the rogues didn't attack your realms, your realms would have NOTHING to do.

Because the only realms that ever did anything are still doing so, and the only realms that are crippled by the rogues are those that never do anything anyways.

The rogues are player-driven. Stop senseless sprawl and they won't be much of an issue. If you first end your own senseless sprawl, and you see neighbors not doing so, go teach them a lesson to force them to stop expanding.

Edit: If this is about D'Hara, then it's probably the reason why it currently has the most foreign realms in its land I ever remember it having, the struggle is making D'Hara reach out more than it is known for. There are troops from at least Westgard, Morek, and Luria helping D'Hara out. It's pretty much unprecedented.
I agree much with Chenier on this part. Morek was facing 30K CS alone on our lands. Likely due to Morek has many lands access to sea. And so my character Gary innovates a bit, he led Morek army to Westgard where the rogue gather and destroy them first before the rogue come to his lands.

About D'Hara. It is difficult to see D'Hara in such conditions being hammered by rogue and many of its lands driven rogue. In honor of D'Hara alliance and support during Morek difficult times, Morek has to repay back by helping them. You help me, I help you. No surprise there :)
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Antonine

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #27: November 12, 2017, 09:05:53 PM »
Tbh, D'Hara is doing just fine - the help from allies made a big difference to helping us fight off the monsters but generally speaking we have a good noble density and enough nobles to drive internal activity so we're pretty well off compared to Madina/Fissoa.

Chenier

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #28: November 13, 2017, 02:25:35 AM »
Tbh, D'Hara is doing just fine - the help from allies made a big difference to helping us fight off the monsters but generally speaking we have a good noble density and enough nobles to drive internal activity so we're pretty well off compared to Madina/Fissoa.

Madina has a psychological territorial problem. That big island is just a natural expanse for them to hold, and historically it was rather easy for them to do, despite everything else. Aurvandil aside, there was never anyone else who was ever in a position to really invade Madina, nor who really tried, so it didn't matter how bad the realm was, it was basically impossible to fail at holding the whole island. The realm has taken that territory for granted for so long, it's probably hard to accept any change to this.

But the game changed. Madina isn't as isolated at it once was. It has to up its game to be somewhat on par with the rest of the continent, because the monster threat is more diffuse and as continental denisty goes down, it pressure keeps stacking up until one of the realms (or many) start failing. It's really kind of a war by proxy. Fight the other realms by holding out longest.

Fissoa is a similar situation, minus the natural territorial expanse. Save for a few wars with Luria (which it mostly tried to avoid at all costs, due to the overwhelming odds it represented), it never really had any enemies to deal with, with Madina back door and the seas on other sides.

Both realms need to adapt, though. And not just to holding less land. These monsters, they are forcing interaction. To which you can react in many ways. You can help a realm annex another, for example, doing so can drastically reduce the density in your "ally", making him a much larger target to the next rogue invasion. You can try to reduce or destroy a realm; doing so increases the continental density, thus staving off the next monster invasion. You can try to be legitimately nice, force deal with neighbors, and collaborate. Mount organized defenses and the like, so that when the hordes strike, you fare better, or at least recuperate faster. You can go hunt the nearby rogues between the invasions, so as to lessen what will come for you when they trigger. You can invest in better RCs, walls, militia. Draw up contingency plans.

In short, you can do a ton of things about these monsters.

But if you just sit back and take for granted that you are entitled to 13-14 regions despite only having 14 nobles, yea, you might have trouble, and might grow frustrated with the results you obtain.

Arnor and Morek both have less nobles than Madina has, but from all appearances are more dynamic. It's not just about noble count.
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Chenier

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Re: Dwilight monsters destroy realms
« Reply #29: November 13, 2017, 03:55:25 AM »
To further add about the Madina island, if leaving some rogue regions was cause for concern, for whatever reason, then Madina could simply share with D'Hara and Fissoa. Would allow D'Hara to not have to expand towards Luria, which is impractical, and the same for Fissoa. Heck, if D'Hara lost Girich and Mattan Dews, it could take pretty much all of Madina's rogue regions and maintain a ratio of about 2:1 nobles per region.

I'd also point out that this used to be the case. D'Hara held the north of the Madinian isle for quite some time, after Aurvandil was vanquished.
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