Author Topic: Is it normal for a new ruler to lose all titles/gov positions and duchies?  (Read 24724 times)

Zakky

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Samboji. I am sorry but you were given a thorough explanation by those in the dev team who actually have more access than titans on why everything happened the way it did. You kept crying about how you were affected. Yes you were affected. How is that the fault of Titans? Do you even read what you are saying? They had to punish a player who held 3 government positions out of four, 1 ducal out of two, 1 city lordship and 1 marshal position. One person held over three quarter of all available high ranking positions in a single realm and you thought they could somehow avoid affecting people? If you really believe that I don't know what to tell you. Just blame the titans and leave in peace. Stop wasting your time.

CryptCypher

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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?
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Antonine

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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?

OOC it's not technically breaking the rules unless it's actively undermining gameplay for other players in someway.

But IC there should be zero tolerance for it and personally I have very little respect for any realm where one person is hoarding power and the other players in it aren't working IC to overthrow them.

CryptCypher

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Shiiiet... And I thought I was doing the right thing when I decided Xavax Xerarchs are a prophet-like position and we aren't supposed to own duchies.

PFffffft.
Apsu@Legends. BM: Yxevarii Auru'in, Grandmistress [Ruler;Priestess-Inquisitor] (Obia'Syela-BT); Sigrid Gudrun Auru'in, Avenging Exile of Xavax, Countess of Slimbar (Redhaven-EC);  Masalu Auru'in, Linguistically-Challenged Sumerian Death-Cultist (D'hara-DW)

Bronnen

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I tried a year or so back to get rid of Crixus, and we were mostly successful. We had him down to just the duchy and lordship, then he started forcing any new members of the realm to swear to him and vote for him in elections or he would remove them from his duchy.


MTYL

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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?

Wait, weren't you having a character in Obia'Syela? You tell me how that's acceptable. For me OS is a very fun realm and I see JV as awesome player organizing lotsa fun for peeps.

OOC it's not technically breaking the rules unless it's actively undermining gameplay for other players in someway.

But IC there should be zero tolerance for it and personally I have very little respect for any realm where one person is hoarding power and the other players in it aren't working IC to overthrow them.

Ditto, don't you have character in Obia'Syela? Why do you have a character in realm you don't respect?

JV had 100% of high ranking positions in OS for quite some time. I'm not saying he did anything wrong, I'm not equalizing him with Domitius, I'm just pointing out hipocrisy.

I tried a year or so back to get rid of Crixus, and we were mostly successful. We had him down to just the duchy and lordship, then he started forcing any new members of the realm to swear to him and vote for him in elections or he would remove them from his duchy.

Your plan was no good and when new players turned to you to ask for guidance you responded with complete silence. They had no choice but to back Crixus. And btw - if not for the titan decision Crixus situation would be dealt with IC, like within the next two weeks or so.
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Antonine

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Ditto, don't you have character in Obia'Syela? Why do you have a character in realm you don't respect?

JV had 100% of high ranking positions in OS for quite some time. I'm not saying he did anything wrong, I'm not equalizing him with Domitius, I'm just pointing out hipocrisy.

Nope, you're completely wrong. I've never played in OS and I have no desire to do so - the religion they've got going doesn't fit with how I like to play my characters. Maybe do your research next time? I do make it quite clear that I play the Sussex family...

Also, the only reason why what's happened with Crixus is so objectionable to you is because you're adopting a negative attitude. As I've already talked about in this thread, I joined a realm based in Flowrestown immediately after it had been reduced to like 6 nobles thanks to a multi quitting the game. We had worse problems than you do - a sudden power vacuum AND non-stop rogue attacks AND too few nobles to boot.

But it was actually one of the funnest times I had in the game precisely because no-one bitched about it. We all RP'd it as a plague striking down many prominent nobles and tried to work together to stabilise things. It was challenging but that challenge and teamwork was what made it great.

This isn't a disaster, this is an opportunity. An opportunity for new people to show leadership and for the realm to find a new identity that doesn't centre on just one power-gamer. You've got plenty of nobles and regions in decent shape - the worst potential outcome here is that you lose Unterstrom and have to reconquer the regions belonging to Sol. That's not a disaster, it's a challenge.

Besides, you can't change anything at this point so you'd be doing yourself, your realm and everyone else a favour if, instead of complaining about a completely legitimate titan punishment, you just focused on how to make the best of things.

Honestly, if my character on DWI wasn't already have her own agenda in D'Hara then I'd be really tempted to join Swordfell right now to enjoy the dynamism that usually follows a sudden power vacuum.

Antonine

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Also, JV had lots of key positions temporarily. There's nothing wrong when that happens out of necessity. There is something wrong when one player continues to hoard positions in a realm long after there are plenty of nobles who'd be capable of holding some of those positions instead.

If you've got a realm with only 4 nobles then it's excusable to have 1 player as ruler/duke/general/margrave/marshal or whatever. It's really not excusable once you've got 8 or more nobles.

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I have this feeling of negativity within this topic and I don't quite like it. MTYL has a right to express his concerns with a current situation and it appears at least as if 5 gives are coming aggressively at him.
 Even if it's not your intention, it does appear so and would explain much of his defensive attitude in return. I'd suggest we turn to a more constructive tone from now on.
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Gabanus family

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Samboji I'm sad to see you leave as well. In my view a titan decision always affects something, even when they do the right thing. In turn I think it's the job of the players to then take in this decision and make sure the effects of any group are not too large.

I can only speak for my own actions and from some in Astrum when I say that Swordfell is given some extra slack because of this, to ensure that all players still have a proper place to play and enjoy the game. In fact, the decision may have even benefitted Swordfell in this regard.

As to having many titles, it sometimes still happens. The example brought up here: Even when OS had 14 nobles or so JV had all the titles (save for General) because she wanted to promote the priesthood and thus she'd relinquish them only to priests (theocracy as such). It is true that the more titles you have, the more impact it will have on your realm when something happens and I typically find people avoiding joining or staying in realms where one person has all the titles, so it usually solves itself when it is detrimental to the atmosphere.
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Vita`

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I just hope that the next time the Titan's think they're punishing one or two people's behaviour in-game, that they realize they may be punishing 10-12 others that were just bystanders.

...

Try not to !@#$ up 10+ other people's game while trying to punish one or two. It's fairly good advice.
You were not punished. You may have been affected. There is no way to remove offending government members from their position without affecting other characters. There is no way that offending government members should be allowed to continue to abuse their position without consequence. Your not being affected by a punishment does not trump punishing the offending character, especially a government member misusing his position.

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What do I have to do anything with titans? You thought I was a titan? ROFL. Anyway, have a good one as well.
Zakky, you have been talking in this thread as if you know how Titans operate. You would not have that knowledge without having been a Titan at some point in the past. Over the last many months, while you are often in the general ballpark of accuracy, you were not a dev yourself, and have often explained mechanics misleadingly based upon your own understanding, which may be more than the average player, but not as much as anyone whose read the code. Please think about what you are saying. And yes, as Samboji points out, that includes the tone of your explanations and not talking down to other players. You can be very helpful in explaining to players, indeed, but sometimes its slightly off the mark, or can get aggressive. Just slow down and think before you hit reply. Sometimes, when I do that, I realize I should reword or even just not reply.

Vita`

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Holy crap, people are allowed to hoard all those positions simultaneously in BM?! That's... That's insane. God forbid the person gets sick, goes on vacation, dies, quits, or - well - gets in trouble... The whole realm is screwed. How the hell is that even vaguely acceptable, whether IC or OOC?
It's not an OOC rule that one cannot hold them. But it is looked down upon for how it affects the realm and new players. Each government system, as explained in my explanation for Samboji as the beginning of the thread, has different limits on how one may acquire government positions. To acquire that many government titles requires complicity of the realm to elect the characters into titles.

ICly, it should absolutely be looked down upon as a power-hungry tyrant.

Chenier

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Zakky, you have been talking in this thread as if you know how Titans operate. You would not have that knowledge without having been a Titan at some point in the past. Over the last many months, while you are often in the general ballpark of accuracy, you were not a dev yourself, and have often explained mechanics misleadingly based upon your own understanding, which may be more than the average player, but not as much as anyone whose read the code. Please think about what you are saying. And yes, as Samboji points out, that includes the tone of your explanations and not talking down to other players. You can be very helpful in explaining to players, indeed, but sometimes its slightly off the mark, or can get aggressive. Just slow down and think before you hit reply. Sometimes, when I do that, I realize I should reword or even just not reply.

In his defense, most of what he said, if not all, is "common knowledge" to any of us old timers.

I can get that it can give the impression to a newbie that he is authoritorial in the matter, but I neither think that posing as a titan was his intent, nor that whatever experience he may have previously had as a dev/coder/mod/titan/magistrate/whatever is the sole source of his knowledge.

Every time a case like this shows up, it's always the same scenario. Those who backed the cheaters whine, threaten to quit, talk as if the rules are for everyone but them, and that somehow, in the grand scheme of things, those people who backed the cheaters are the true victims of it all. And each time, explanations about how titan decisions are made are shared, to help ease any feeling of arbitrary persecution.

MTYL... The line you are referring to is

Quote
The titans didn't invalidate your progress, Crixus, the guy you supported, did. He betrayed you, the titan's reaction was neither arbitrary nor unpredictable.

If you truly do not understand what was said here, allow me to reformulate:

The titans' judgement is not an independent act. It is not a cause. It does not spring out of nothingness. Titan sanctions appear when, and only when, rules are broken (beyond reasonable doubt). Yes, they have the authority to use their judgement when it comes to the severity, but they don't use it arbitrarily, the decision is perfectly in line with previous examples. So if your complaint is that your realm is filled with empty positions, then what caused that? The titan judgement it would seem, by the complain, but that's just a symptom. The root cause of the positions being empty is Crixus breaking the rules. And he should have known that breaking the rules in this way would have exactly this effect. He's not a newbie. So with full knowledge of the risks, he chose to take actions that would lead to the current situation.

If you are angry about the amount of positions left empty, don't be angry with the titans for doing their job, be angry 1) with Crixus for blatantly breaking the rules, and 2) with yourselves for giving so damn many titles to him. The hell guys, concentrating power this much is stupid. Where would you be now if Crixus had been captured in battle, or had taken a serious wound that wouldn't heal? No better off. Swordfell's players in this regard have no one to blame but themselves.
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CryptCypher

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Interesting! No offense meant, for the record. Just curious.

And like Antoinete said, there's a significant IC difference between temporarily holding multiple titles, and the long-term hoarding of power, compounded by tyrannical pressuring and threats of expulsion to any who refuse to comply.
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