Author Topic: Capital Moves  (Read 645 times)

Chenier

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Capital Moves
« Topic Start: December 14, 2017, 05:09:10 PM »
"Strategic capital moves" are against the rules, but it's also been established that moving a realm's capital to a more central position is not, in itself, against the rules.

I was wondering if some titans could pitch in on the matter of whether moving the capital to a more central location can ever be considered against the rules, and if so, what circumstances would make it illegal (war, etc.).

Anaris

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Re: Capital Moves
« Reply #1: December 14, 2017, 05:11:04 PM »
The only reason I can think of that there could even be a doubt about it is if the capital was previously on the far edge of the realm from a realm they're at war with, and centralizing will also put recruitment closer to the front.

It would be a bit of a hard sell unless there was clear evidence of people in power explicitly discussing doing it for the recruitment advantage (as there was in the recent Swordfell case for secession).
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Chenier

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Re: Capital Moves
« Reply #2: December 14, 2017, 09:14:00 PM »
I'm not sure I follow.

Take Highmarch, for example, on EC. The capital is Domus, which is also a border region. With the increasing number of acquisitions North-West of it, Akesh Temple is becoming an increasingly more central location than Domus is.

Would moving the capital to Akesh Temple, which always was more central than Domus, be okay? But moving it there brings it closer to the front, with closer refit times, and Domus' increasing distance from the center of the realm is a direct result of this war.

It's nowhere near issues like Swordfell putting their capital right in enemy lines, or any other case of putting the capital right at the front (though technically I guess it Akesh Temple is at the front, somewhat, by bordering Evora). But there's still a strategic benefit to it (but there always is, else no one would ever do it, even if it's just optimizing tax rates).

Anaris

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Re: Capital Moves
« Reply #3: December 14, 2017, 09:25:05 PM »
The prohibition has never been on moving the capital for strategic benefit—as you say, nearly every capital move has some strategic benefit.

It is specifically on moving the capital for the strategic benefit of recruitment closer to the front.

And, as was complained about a certain amount recently, it is at least partly a crime of intent. The same action can be considered either definitely fine or definitely illegal, depending on what people have discussed and stated as its reasons. (Though most of the time in cases like this, it's somewhere in the middle...)

Given the situation you have described for Highmarch, I would be highly skeptical of any capital move that happened in the near future. Frankly, I'd be highly suspicious of any capital move that happened less than a year after the creation of the realm unless it was to move the capital away from a front that had suddenly come to it (due to regions being taken by enemies).

Consolidation of military gains is something that most generally happens during peacetime. There is an important line to be drawn here between this sort of thing and the secession that led to Highmarch's creation in the first place, as a) secession inherently creates more opportunity, and b) secession removes regions from a realm, which can quickly alleviate the serious pressure that being too large can place on a realm's regions. The pressures of being far from the capital tend to build up more slowly, and are by their nature not shared equally across the realm.

...I hope that sounds more coherent to you than it did to me...  :o
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Chenier

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Re: Capital Moves
« Reply #4: December 15, 2017, 01:52:50 AM »
The prohibition has never been on moving the capital for strategic benefit—as you say, nearly every capital move has some strategic benefit.

It is specifically on moving the capital for the strategic benefit of recruitment closer to the front.

And, as was complained about a certain amount recently, it is at least partly a crime of intent. The same action can be considered either definitely fine or definitely illegal, depending on what people have discussed and stated as its reasons. (Though most of the time in cases like this, it's somewhere in the middle...)

Given the situation you have described for Highmarch, I would be highly skeptical of any capital move that happened in the near future. Frankly, I'd be highly suspicious of any capital move that happened less than a year after the creation of the realm unless it was to move the capital away from a front that had suddenly come to it (due to regions being taken by enemies).

Consolidation of military gains is something that most generally happens during peacetime. There is an important line to be drawn here between this sort of thing and the secession that led to Highmarch's creation in the first place, as a) secession inherently creates more opportunity, and b) secession removes regions from a realm, which can quickly alleviate the serious pressure that being too large can place on a realm's regions. The pressures of being far from the capital tend to build up more slowly, and are by their nature not shared equally across the realm.

...I hope that sounds more coherent to you than it did to me...  :o

I learned that Akesh Temple was meant to be the initial capital of the realm, given it is more central, but that when seceding the game forced the selection of a city (why?)...? Would this factor in a decision to move it to Akesh?

To be clear, I haven't heard of the ruler talk of it yet, other than maybe mention he'd fear it against the rules. But as the new lord of Akesh Temple, I'd sure love the capital to be there, sure would make my life easier. :P

Anaris

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Re: Capital Moves
« Reply #5: December 15, 2017, 02:49:14 AM »
I learned that Akesh Temple was meant to be the initial capital of the realm, given it is more central, but that when seceding the game forced the selection of a city (why?)...?

Mrrrgh. OK, I was afraid there was still that inconsistency. I think we should fix that—allow any region that would normally be used as a capital to be designated as one in any of the various places that one can do that.

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Would this factor in a decision to move it to Akesh?

Yes, I think so, but it still wouldn't make it a guarantee.

Quote
To be clear, I haven't heard of the ruler talk of it yet, other than maybe mention he'd fear it against the rules. But as the new lord of Akesh Temple, I'd sure love the capital to be there, sure would make my life easier. :P

Ah, OK; I was under the impression you were the ruler.

I feel like if you were the ruler, that would actually be another small point in favour of allowing it there (because that kind of selfishness is 100% reasonable IC, and adds legitimacy to a case that it is an IC capital move). However, again, it would not make it a slam dunk.

I would say that your best bet for convincing me that moving it there is totally kosher is to give it some more time, until the war has moved at least a bit further—either towards peace, or away from Akesh as a front line.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Chenier

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Re: Capital Moves
« Reply #6: December 15, 2017, 03:37:52 AM »
Mrrrgh. OK, I was afraid there was still that inconsistency. I think we should fix that—allow any region that would normally be used as a capital to be designated as one in any of the various places that one can do that.

Yes, I think so, but it still wouldn't make it a guarantee.

Ah, OK; I was under the impression you were the ruler.

I feel like if you were the ruler, that would actually be another small point in favour of allowing it there (because that kind of selfishness is 100% reasonable IC, and adds legitimacy to a case that it is an IC capital move). However, again, it would not make it a slam dunk.

I would say that your best bet for convincing me that moving it there is totally kosher is to give it some more time, until the war has moved at least a bit further—either towards peace, or away from Akesh as a front line.

What's less selfish about the lord of the region wanting it to become the capital? :P

Just wouldn't have a point in trying to convince others to make it so if it'd bring lightning on their heads.