Author Topic: Estate Improvements  (Read 1283 times)

Antonine

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Estate Improvements
« Topic Start: December 19, 2017, 12:55:35 PM »
At the moment you can use your personal estate to build monuments and memorials and not much else. But it's quite clear that there was always an intention to allow knights to do other things with their estates.

So I've been having a think and I'd like some feedback on whether these would make sense as things which nobles should be able to build on their estates. The idea is that each one should have an affordable but significant cost (for a knight), but then give the holder of that estate access to certain bonuses whenever they're in the region.

  • Smithy - Get the blacksmith to repair 5% of equipment damage for free (can only be used once per week)
  • Chapel - Hold prayers at the chapel to restore unit morale to 100% for free (takes a large number of hours)
  • Training Ground - Train your sword/jousting skill for free (equivalent to free training sessions with an advanced academy trainer)
  • Hunting Chase (rural/woodland/mountain regions only) - Allows you to recruit one of your huntsmen as a scout (can only be used once per week)
  • Craftsman (townsland/city/stronghold regions only) - Allows you to get them to make two free banners for your unit (can only be used once per week)
  • Mill/Workshop - Gives your estate a randomly generated extra income of 10 to 20 gold per week
  • Guardhouse - Daily cost of your unit is halved while you're in the same region as your estate due to being able to quarter your unit in it

So, as an example, a knight could decide to save up 100 gold to build a mill on their estate or 60 gold to build a training ground. They'd then get a long term perk from it, but equally it wouldn't be a perk significant enough that you couldn't live without it.

I'd envisage the improvements as being specific to the estate. When an estate is destroyed completely (e.g. given 0% land allocation) then the improvements are lost. And none of the perks from the improvements should be game balance altering.

This would also have the advantage of a) giving knights something to do, especially in peacetime, and b) giving nobles more of a reason to feel attached to their region. Changing your oath to another lord (or letting the region go rogue) would be something you'd have to care a lot more about if it meant leaving behind all the nice improvements you've spent time making to your estate. Also, it's likely to mean that players think more about their estate as an actual place rather than something under the politics tab which you forget about - once you know what improvements your estate has you're more likely to build up a mental image of it.

It'd also mean that knights would have to weigh up the pros and cons of making an improvement:

90 gold to build a guardhouse is quite extravagant in wartime if you're going to hardly ever visit your region, but it's probably a very wise investment if the realm's at peace and you're able to go sit in your region and save yourself some unit maintenance costs. Though if you're just going to be sitting in the region then maybe you should build a training ground too so you can practice your jousting. And oh, maybe you should suggest that the duke to host a tournament now that half the realm are hotshot jousters from spending so much time at their estates.

So that's the kind of thing I'm going for. Again, I don't think any of the perks should be game balance breaking and I think the cost of the improvements should have to be within reach for the average knight.

I'd be very interested to hear what people think. If people like the concept then I'll submit it as a feature request, but I'm sure there are other estate improvement ideas which people could come up with and I'm sure that the whole concept could use some tweaks before being submitted.

Bronnen

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #1: December 19, 2017, 03:43:37 PM »
Pretty sure those things were already approved but shelved due to lack of volunteers to help with the coding.

Antonine

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #2: December 19, 2017, 04:23:23 PM »
Well I'm happy to do the coding (am already helping as a dev). But I'd be interested in feedback on the specifics of what I'm proposing and in details of what has previously been proposed - no sense in re-inventing the wheel.

Chenier

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #3: December 19, 2017, 04:24:19 PM »
Estates used to have a specific function, they could help control or production I think. I don't remember what led to this removal.

Bronnen

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #4: December 19, 2017, 04:40:07 PM »

Ketchum

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #5: December 20, 2017, 10:35:38 AM »
Can we have a Duchess who was appointed as Duchess, to immediately take up estate in that region or city?

Rather than waste another 3 hours to pack up your things and move to estate.

I have to remind Duke or Region lord constantly to take up estate in their own lands when they find themselves bad income come tax day.

Maybe can have this included into this list of estate improvements as well.

Thank you developers and those who are listening.
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Anaris

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #6: December 20, 2017, 02:40:22 PM »
Can we have a Duchess who was appointed as Duchess, to immediately take up estate in that region or city?

Rather than waste another 3 hours to pack up your things and move to estate.

I have to remind Duke or Region lord constantly to take up estate in their own lands when they find themselves bad income come tax day.

Maybe can have this included into this list of estate improvements as well.

Thank you developers and those who are listening.

...If a character has an estate in Region A, it should be quite impossible to appoint them as Lord of Region B.

If a character has an estate in Region A that is part of Duchy B, appointing them as Duke or Duchess of Duchy B should not pose a problem; however, they will lose their estate come the next morning if they are not also Lord of Region A.

So...I'm not sure what specific problem you're having that isn't a bug.
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Anderfhstim

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #7: December 20, 2017, 03:49:29 PM »
Since you are looking for feedback here they are

Smithy - Get the blacksmith to repair 5% of equipment damage for free (can only be used once per week)

-Feels kinda unnecessary to be honest unless you are getting your own personal smithy in your estate. Wouldn't mind having one that is as good as ones in townsland. Would give you a reason to visit your region sometimes on your way back to a city or something. But maybe for free.

Chapel - Hold prayers at the chapel to restore unit morale to 100% for free (takes a large number of hours)

-Not sure you want this. I'd rather have priests get a new ability to do this to be honest. Or be able to get this from a temple building in the region you are in.

Training Ground - Train your sword/jousting skill for free (equivalent to free training sessions with an advanced academy trainer)

-Not all the way to advanced. At most they should only get a normal tutor (<40%). Also why just for sword/joust. Make it available for all.

Hunting Chase (rural/woodland/mountain regions only) - Allows you to recruit one of your huntsmen as a scout (can only be used once per week)
Craftsman (townsland/city/stronghold regions only) - Allows you to get them to make two free banners for your unit (can only be used once per week)

-Free paraphernalia isnt' a bad idea.

Mill/Workshop - Gives your estate a randomly generated extra income of 10 to 20 gold per week

-Wouldn't mind having production buildings like this. But instead of getting food directly, I'd like to see some variety. Like Mill maybe increase the food production of the region by 10%.

Guardhouse - Daily cost of your unit is halved while you're in the same region as your estate due to being able to quarter your unit in it

-Automatic policing would be nice while you are in the region to capture any suspicious character in your region.

**production buildings(maybe all of them) obviously need to become obsolete the moment estate becomes vacant

**need to think how long these buildings can stay up while the estate they are located in stays vacant. Maybe after being vacant for 3 months, all buildings should shut down.

**estate size should determine how many buildings you can have.

**building prices must become more expensive I feel. Especially for free academy. That thing needs to be expensive. At least 300 gold or more.

Antonine

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #8: December 20, 2017, 04:42:35 PM »
...If a character has an estate in Region A, it should be quite impossible to appoint them as Lord of Region B.

If a character has an estate in Region A that is part of Duchy B, appointing them as Duke or Duchess of Duchy B should not pose a problem; however, they will lose their estate come the next morning if they are not also Lord of Region A.

So...I'm not sure what specific problem you're having that isn't a bug.

I think what's been referred to is that when you're elected as a lord you vacate your old estate but don't automatically take up one in the region you're now lord of - and you're forced to wait a day to choose a new estate after having left your old one.

Antonine

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #9: December 20, 2017, 05:33:02 PM »
Since you are looking for feedback here they are

Smithy - Get the blacksmith to repair 5% of equipment damage for free (can only be used once per week)

-Feels kinda unnecessary to be honest unless you are getting your own personal smithy in your estate. Wouldn't mind having one that is as good as ones in townsland. Would give you a reason to visit your region sometimes on your way back to a city or something. But maybe for free.

Chapel - Hold prayers at the chapel to restore unit morale to 100% for free (takes a large number of hours)

-Not sure you want this. I'd rather have priests get a new ability to do this to be honest. Or be able to get this from a temple building in the region you are in.

Training Ground - Train your sword/jousting skill for free (equivalent to free training sessions with an advanced academy trainer)

-Not all the way to advanced. At most they should only get a normal tutor (<40%). Also why just for sword/joust. Make it available for all.

Hunting Chase (rural/woodland/mountain regions only) - Allows you to recruit one of your huntsmen as a scout (can only be used once per week)
Craftsman (townsland/city/stronghold regions only) - Allows you to get them to make two free banners for your unit (can only be used once per week)

-Free paraphernalia isnt' a bad idea.

Mill/Workshop - Gives your estate a randomly generated extra income of 10 to 20 gold per week

-Wouldn't mind having production buildings like this. But instead of getting food directly, I'd like to see some variety. Like Mill maybe increase the food production of the region by 10%.

Guardhouse - Daily cost of your unit is halved while you're in the same region as your estate due to being able to quarter your unit in it

-Automatic policing would be nice while you are in the region to capture any suspicious character in your region.

**production buildings(maybe all of them) obviously need to become obsolete the moment estate becomes vacant

**need to think how long these buildings can stay up while the estate they are located in stays vacant. Maybe after being vacant for 3 months, all buildings should shut down.

**estate size should determine how many buildings you can have.

**building prices must become more expensive I feel. Especially for free academy. That thing needs to be expensive. At least 300 gold or more.

The point is that all of these improvements should be AFFORDABLE on a knight's income and that the perks they give shouldn't be enough to make region infrastructure obsolete. They need to be specific to the estate, rather than to the region, so that the estate holder is the only one who receives a direct benefit. Otherwise there's literally no point in having them.

But based on the feedback, here's an updated list of suggestions:

  • Smithy - Get your blacksmith to repair 10% of equipment damage for free (can only be used once per week) - using this shouldn't be the equivalent of having a full blown repair workshop, it should only give you a limited benefit
  • Chapel - Hold prayers at the chapel to restore unit morale to 100% for free (takes a large number of hours) - you can already do something similar by visiting a temple of your faith but knights shouldn't be able to build temples
  • Training Ground - Train your sword/jousting skill for free (equivalent to free training sessions with a Normal academy trainer) - this would only be for martial skills rather than anything else as it's not the same as a full blown academy with a wide range of tutors
  • Hunting Chase (rural/woodland/mountain regions only) - Allows you to recruit one of your huntsmen as a scout (can only be used once per week)
  • Craftsman (townsland/city/stronghold regions only) - Allows you to get them to make two free banners for your unit (can only be used once per week)
  • Mill/Workshop - Gives your estate +15% efficiency, this means you get an extra income which your liege can tax, but it gets negated by the existing mechanics if the estate is vacated
  • Guardhouse - Daily cost of your unit is halved while you're in the same region as your estate due to being able to quarter your unit in it - if you then choose to spend your hours doing police work or whatever then that's up to you

Vita

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #10: December 20, 2017, 05:50:48 PM »
Are you thinking of limiting buildings per estate by percentage, number of peasants in estate, or some combination of the two?

Chenier

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #11: December 20, 2017, 05:52:13 PM »
I think we should really try to dig up the reasons invoked for removing the production/authority aspect estates had, to make sure we aren't just going back to a problematic situation.

Anderfhstim

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #12: December 20, 2017, 06:01:30 PM »
  • Smithy - Get your blacksmith to repair 10% of equipment damage for free (can only be used once per week) - using this shouldn't be the equivalent of having a full blown repair workshop, it should only give you a limited benefit

--Now this is a useless feature. 10% a week? That is pathetic. Why bother going back when you can just repair your equipment cheaply. I'd rather take 100% once a week over this.

  • Chapel - Hold prayers at the chapel to restore unit morale to 100% for free (takes a large number of hours) - you can already do something similar by visiting a temple of your faith but knights shouldn't be able to build temples

--Honestly, I don't see the merit of this. It is so easy to keep your morale at 100% in this game this feature is pointless.

  • Training Ground - Train your sword/jousting skill for free (equivalent to free training sessions with a Normal academy trainer) - this would only be for martial skills rather than anything else as it's not the same as a full blown academy with a wide range of tutors

-This has to be expensive unless we are planning on making all characters start off at 40% which I do not mind actually so people can't just go around bullying others after spending weeks training.

  • Hunting Chase (rural/woodland/mountain regions only) - Allows you to recruit one of your huntsmen as a scout (can only be used once per week)
  • Craftsman (townsland/city/stronghold regions only) - Allows you to get them to make two free banners for your unit (can only be used once per week)
  • Mill/Workshop - Gives your estate +15% efficiency, this means you get an extra income which your liege can tax, but it gets negated by the existing mechanics if the estate is vacated

-Pretty sure efficiency never got implemented. Unless you are going to finish it I don't see any merit of this feature.

  • Guardhouse - Daily cost of your unit is halved while you're in the same region as your estate due to being able to quarter your unit in it - if you then choose to spend your hours doing police work or whatever then that's up to you

-Kinda useless unless you have an estate in a city and has a huge unit.

Anderfhstim

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #13: December 20, 2017, 06:03:30 PM »
Are you thinking of limiting buildings per estate by percentage, number of peasants in estate, or some combination of the two?

Basing it on # peasants is too silly. I honestly hate how BM handles population and I hope it will be completely overhauled one day.

I think this should be based on percentage. You start off with 1 free slot. For every 5%, you get 1 more slot. So there is actually some incentives on being a goddamn rural knight over a city knight for a change.

Anaris

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Re: Estate Improvements
« Reply #14: December 20, 2017, 06:04:24 PM »
I think what's been referred to is that when you're elected as a lord you vacate your old estate but don't automatically take up one in the region you're now lord of - and you're forced to wait a day to choose a new estate after having left your old one.

Ah, I see.

Well, automatically taking up an estate is pretty much a no-go. There's no guarantee there will even be an estate available, and if there is, the Lord might want to pick between the estates (or even change them!) rather than just being dumped into one.

I think we could probably remove the day-long block on taking up a new estate after you step down, though. That's there to prevent some kinds of abuse involving vacating and picking up estates many times in a turn, if I recall correctly.
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