Author Topic: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra  (Read 1727 times)

Antonine

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Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Topic Start: December 22, 2017, 04:10:28 PM »
So about a month ago I got curious, gathered up the region data from each continent I played on, and did some number crunching so I could work out what the total human population of each continent was. 

Here's what I found:

East Continent

Population: ~1.6 million
Realms: 13
Cities: 24
Largest city population: 95,000 (Ibladesh)
Area: 374,867 sq. miles

Summary: This is roughly equivalent to the population of England and Wales circa 1000 AD. By contrast, however, England and Wales only had two realms at 1000 AD and even back in 700 AD only had about 11 realms. And the largest city in England and Wales at 1000 AD was London which only had a population of 10,000 people (which made it very large) and there were only about 10 cities in the entire country and which, excluding London, had populations ranging from 3,000 to 6,000 people.

However, the total land area of England and Wales is only around 58,000 square miles while the East Continent is only barely smaller than the size of France, Germany and Ireland all combined.

Colonies

Population: ~400,000
Realms: 9
Cities: 8
Largest city population: 30,000 (Oritiolon)
Area:  570,601 sq. miles

Summary: By contrast, the population of Ireland was about 600,000 at around 1000 AD and there were 9 realms on the island. But even by 1300 AD the population of Dublin was only about 11,000 in 1300 AD. But the total land area of the island of Ireland is just 32,595 square miles while the total land area of the colonies is larger than France, Spain, Portugal and Italy all combined!

Dwilight

Population: ~2.6 million
Realms: 12
Cities: 37
Largest city population: 90,000 (Giask)
Area: 596,312 sq. miles

Summary: Many of the cities of Dwilight are depopulated which means its total potential population is probably somewhere between 3 to 4 million people. That would be roughly equivalent to the population of England and Wales at the medieval peak of 1300 AD. However, Dwilight is only slightly larger in square mileage than the Colonies (I know, right???) meaning that Dwilight is larger than France, Spain, Portugal, Italy AND Ireland all combined! By contrast, the combined population of those countries was over 33 million in 1300 AD.

Beluaterra

Population: ~1.4 million
Realms: 11
Cities: 26
Largest city population: 52,500 (Wudenkin)
Area: 449,187 sq. miles

Summary: The population of Beluaterra is about the same as the population of Denmark, Sweden and Norway at around 1300 AD. However, Beluaterra is roughly the same size as France, Germany, Austria, Czechkia, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg all combined.

***

Conclusions:

The populations and sizes of the continents bear no relation to each other whatsoever. Also, utterly bizarrely, the Colonies are larger than either Beluaterra or the East Continent. Battlemaster, based on continent size, should have a population of well over 100 million but actually only has a population of about 6 million.

On the other hand, if you ignore continent size then a lot of other things are more reasonable. The East Continent is about the size of England and Wales at the end of the Anglo-Saxon era and is fragmented to about as many political entities as England and Wales were around 700 AD. So by that standard, army sizes and noble numbers make sense for the population - 2,000 soldiers counts as a large army and a decent sized realm will have maybe 20 to 30 nobles in it, corresponding to the number of powerful nobles you'd find in a typical Anglo-Saxon kingdom.

But what doesn't make sense given the population level is the number of cities or how large they are.

At the end of Anglo-Saxon era, Winchester, the capital of Wessex, had a population of about 6,000 people and the largest city in Great Britain (London) had a population of only about 10,000 people - which is about the same as the smallest city on the East Continent.

None of this means that much of course, and shouldn't make any difference to how we play the game, but hopefully you'll all find these facts and figures as interesting as I did when I put them together :)

Bronnen

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #1: December 22, 2017, 04:17:38 PM »
Well now that makes sense how Josiah has the largest ducal influence on the continent.

Anaris

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #2: December 22, 2017, 05:05:38 PM »
Yeah, the numbers have been fudged several times throughout the game's history, and never really systematically validated against any kind of historical average beyond a vague sort of "yeah, that seems about right."

There was a thread a while back about the sizes of the continents, and the conclusion that I, at least, drew from it was that "Battlemasterra" is a planet undergoing an ice age, and the "continents" we know are all islands strung around the equator. (That was, at least in part, the inspiration for the Ice Age event, that didn't turn out nearly as well as I'd hoped.  :-[ )
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Eduardo Almighty

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #3: December 22, 2017, 05:26:25 PM »
In "Battlemasterra" we have battles every week, sometimes two or three. Always a good way to prevent overpopulation problems.
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Antonine

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #4: December 22, 2017, 05:46:06 PM »
My assessment would be:

1) City region populations are still too high (even if you assume they include a hinterland outside the core of the city itself)
2) Non-city region populations need to be greatly increased
3) The continent square mileages should be completely redone based on the look of the continents and the populations

So the Colonies feel, to me, as though they're roughly equivalent to medieval Ireland in both size and population. So they just need the population rebalancing some and the size of the continent massively shrunk.

Dwilight, on the other hand, feels vast so its official size is about right. So, for example, Greater Luria  (e.g. Luria Nova plus the Shinnen peninsula) feels to me like an area broadly equivalent to medieval France. It should have literally millions of peasants living in it and Giask should be the equivalent of medieval Paris. The entire continent should have a population of over 30 million peasants based on its size.

The East Continent and Beluaterra, on the other hand, both feel to me as though from north to south they're about the same length as medieval France or Germany (only a lot thinner). So they should also have populations to match.

Alternatively, you could say that the East Continent should have roughly the same population it has now and therefore make it follow a medieval Britain model of population density and land area.

Chenier

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #5: December 22, 2017, 06:37:02 PM »
I think BM's "cities", for the most part, cover very large territories and thus would include the suburbs that might not have been calculated in RL city demographic reports.

Antonine

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #6: December 22, 2017, 08:56:14 PM »
I think BM's "cities", for the most part, cover very large territories and thus would include the suburbs that might not have been calculated in RL city demographic reports.

That's true I suppose. So really the big issue is that the cities are fine but that the rural populations are incredibly low and that the physical size of the continents is absolutely crazy in some cases.

Chenier

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #7: December 22, 2017, 09:14:46 PM »
That's true I suppose. So really the big issue is that the cities are fine but that the rural populations are incredibly low and that the physical size of the continents is absolutely crazy in some cases.

Quite possibly.

I don't think the whole thing was ever calculated with realism in mind. How much suburbs did these cities have? The game assumes the whole region is fortified, when there are any.

Also, a human travels at about 3.1 mph. But my unit on good roads can do 212 miles in 11 hours, which is over 19 mph. Even if you give everyone horses, they walk at 4mph, but I'm leading ranged special forces, not cavalry.

BM has way too many people in its cities, that's for sure. But we only have averages, so I'm not sure what the data is per region type.

Eduardo Almighty

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #8: December 22, 2017, 10:24:12 PM »
Quote
Also, a human travels at about 3.1 mph. But my unit on good roads can do 212 miles in 11 hours, which is over 19 mph. Even if you give everyone horses, they walk at 4mph, but I'm leading ranged special forces, not cavalry.



Sorry...
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Wimpie

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #9: December 23, 2017, 11:49:20 AM »
Viper cheat code for Age of Empires?  ;D
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CryptCypher

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #10: December 23, 2017, 12:45:33 PM »
Viper cheat code for Age of Empires?  ;D

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Chenier

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #11: December 24, 2017, 01:44:45 AM »
Viper cheat code for Age of Empires?  ;D

Friggin' appropriate.

Daniel Coffey

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #12: December 30, 2017, 12:28:10 PM »
Hi guys, new to the forums and haven't really been playing for that long, but I really like the game so far and hope it can go much further than it currently is at. There's great potential here, and I would love to be able to help with stuff, sadly I lack all knowledge of coding so probably can't. However, as an outsider from the grand history of it and the community, there's a few things I've seen that I reckon could do with changing if nothing else for quality of life.

In regards to this thread however, in case anyone is interested in a read: http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm

This article seems to be pretty legit as far as I can tell, and the numbers presented could make for some interesting adjustments to the BM world. I know this thread wasn't made with discussing/changing game mechanics in mind, but you never know. So here we are. It discusses a whole host of things which I shall now TL;DR

- Travel distance + Time required to travel
- Population Density per square mile
- Arable land (Food production in game)
- Masses of Economic features that are currently not represented, but could in a pinch make for Gold income in game?

Not sure if any of it will be taken aboard but maybe it'll act as food for thought. I have no idea how hard it would be to readjust population numbers to size of territories and even the size of the territories altogether, considering the earlier post by Antonine.

Thanks for taking the time to read, and thanks again for making Battlemaster the game it is!
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 12:31:22 PM by Daniel Coffey »

Medron Pryde

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #13: January 04, 2018, 12:18:51 PM »
One interesting bit about Beluaterra is that it just came out of a major Daimon invasion that depopulated vast tracks of the continent.  There are still lots and lots of unclaimed territory where the people have been starved, eaten, or otherwise killed via extreme prejudice...

Vita

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Re: Population of the continents and Battlemasterra
« Reply #14: January 04, 2018, 09:27:12 PM »
And territory that must remain unclaimed, for continent density, much like Dwilight.