Author Topic: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhaul  (Read 3218 times)

Zakky

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #30: February 15, 2018, 08:48:07 AM »
This is a perspective piece, not anything that tells us what actually happens. It's what you "feel" happens.

Of course. Do you think anyone knows what actually happens? But we can derive some stuff from the results of past wars. Luria Boreal for example. The war would have ended if they simply surrendered and apologized. What happened instead? They fought to the end and got destroyed. Didn't even put up a fight to be honest. However look at Farronite Republic. They surrendered when Farrowfield got sacked and they did not need to give up anything in return because they were smart about it.

Here are few other examples:

Perdan - Refused to give up their namesake city. Forced the ruler who was willing to accept the terms. After a couple battles, they accepted the same terms they originally refused.

Ibladesh - fought to the end. Got their realm split in two.

GX - fought to the end and got destroyed.

Caligus - lost a bunch of regions. Trying to get back what they lost. They probably won't since the north can't seem to win any battles recently. Maybe they will fight to the end too.

Bronnen

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #31: February 15, 2018, 03:39:16 PM »
In my ten years of battlemaster, I can count on 1 hand the amount of wars that didn't end with the destruction of one realm or another.


GustavKuriga

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #32: February 15, 2018, 06:07:58 PM »
Of course. Do you think anyone knows what actually happens? But we can derive some stuff from the results of past wars. Luria Boreal for example. The war would have ended if they simply surrendered and apologized. What happened instead? They fought to the end and got destroyed. Didn't even put up a fight to be honest. However look at Farronite Republic. They surrendered when Farrowfield got sacked and they did not need to give up anything in return because they were smart about it.

Here are few other examples:

Perdan - Refused to give up their namesake city. Forced the ruler who was willing to accept the terms. After a couple battles, they accepted the same terms they originally refused.

Ibladesh - fought to the end. Got their realm split in two.

GX - fought to the end and got destroyed.

Caligus - lost a bunch of regions. Trying to get back what they lost. They probably won't since the north can't seem to win any battles recently. Maybe they will fight to the end too.

Do you think that reasonable terms were provided to GX? That was a war of extermination from the get-go by a hugbox of realms that were scared that GX was going to become the "next Ibladesh/CE" despite the fact that it was repeatedly stated that they did not want more land, thank you, they just wanted Robb Starfall out of power for being a duplicitous ass please (please note I mean the character, not the player).

I know for a fact that the one who instigated the whole mess in the first place definitely wasn't going to settle for a meaningful peace. I was in his realm where he openly talked about it.

The issue regarding peoples viewpoints of GX is that most only saw one side or the other in that war. I got to see both. Trust me when I say that Robb wanted them dead and was convincing the realms around them that GX was a threat that couldn't be left alive.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 06:12:47 PM by GustavKuriga »

Zakky

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #33: February 15, 2018, 07:49:03 PM »
On what bases should I trust your words? If GX merely wanted to get Robb out of the way, they shouldn't have attacked Perleone to try and take Ibladesh. I am sorry but GX didn't just focus on getting rid of Robb. They tried to expand and become a larger realm. Also, let's not forget GX's internal problems also spilled out. Kellen Dodger once was a member of GX then joined Perdan to see GX destroyed after GX went through some power struggles.

I don't know what was so unfair about dividing a realm that wanted to expand into two. GX would still have done fine even after being split in half. Also, when a realm becomes ridiculously large in noble count, people do tend to be afraid.

GustavKuriga

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #34: February 15, 2018, 08:35:54 PM »
On what bases should I trust your words? If GX merely wanted to get Robb out of the way, they shouldn't have attacked Perleone to try and take Ibladesh. I am sorry but GX didn't just focus on getting rid of Robb. They tried to expand and become a larger realm. Also, let's not forget GX's internal problems also spilled out. Kellen Dodger once was a member of GX then joined Perdan to see GX destroyed after GX went through some power struggles.

I don't know what was so unfair about dividing a realm that wanted to expand into two. GX would still have done fine even after being split in half. Also, when a realm becomes ridiculously large in noble count, people do tend to be afraid.

So your proof that GX wanted to expand was that they attacked the city of someone they were at war with? That's definitely a certain kind of "logic". Considering the only way to knock either Alara or Perleone out of the early war would have been to take out their city anyways, as they weren't surrendering. GX went through some power struggles because Robb straight up lied to GX about allying them (thus saying that GX wanted to expand in that direction is [email protected]#$, they were trying to ally starting out and Robb pulled one over on the ruler at the time), and the Kellan Dodger started off a rebellion against the then ruler. A rebellion specifically aimed at putting someone who would attack Alara for betraying GX's trust into power.

Do you want to know how I know this? I was the one who was General of Alara when the ruler explained what he planned. When Sayuki reacted poorly to this plan of his, he banned my character and claimed Sayuki (my character) was a spy of GX. He wasn't a spy of GX, he had no proof of anything, but it got me out of his way. What he forgot was that my character knew everything about his plan of his, and that my character was the lord of one of the regions bordering GX. So when I switched over to GX, my region came with me, and I proceeded to tell Kellan Dodger about what Robb was planning. Magnus, then the ruler of GX, wasn't having it and believed I was trying to foment discord between Alara and GX. That's why the rebellion kicked off. I was approached by then Duchess Selenia about joining the loyalist faction if I pledged my loyalty to her, which my character did.

After the rebellion failed, Kellan Dodger was banned for the obvious act of fomenting rebellion, yadayada, ended up in Perdan. The reason Perdan even got involved likely had much to do with Kellan Dodger (the character) blatantly lying about what actually happened in order to get some revenge.

The reason that GX became so large in noble count anyways comes to two reasons. A) The people there did a wonderful job creating a realm culture and recruiting players. B) They weren't afraid to take risks. They didn't try and gangbang the smallest realm with a bunch of allies, they fought against a coalition of all the old-guard players who wanted the status-quo of CE on East Island. That was Robb's whole shtick you see...

Zakky

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #35: February 15, 2018, 09:04:20 PM »
We warned GX not to attack Perleone several times. Wasn't really my problem when GX decided to ignore that warning. Perleone never sent any army into GX. Why would I trust your words over Robb's when you did nothing to show your trustworthiness? I don't know how poorly you've reacted to Robb's plan but it was enough to guarantee a ban apparently. Robb has been pretty trustworthy throughout the war at least enough to get the support of Perdan and Vix. GX on the other hand...didn't really show any sign of backing down. Plus some GX members constantly badmouthing Selena probably didn't help.

I honestly never bothered with all the crap flying between GX and south. I just didn't like the fact Vita used a healing scroll to revive her. So I wanted to destroy GX for it. Was pretty easy to throw mud at the whole Perdan peacing out of the war by marrying Selena as Caspian couldn't handle all the criticisms. Protested him day and night until he just quit the game. So yeah at least for Perdan while I ruled, I wanted GX destroyed completely. Didn't really care about other people having fun at least I could throw mud at that XD. As for Kellan, he was hellbent on getting rid of Selena. Never bothered why he was mad at her but at least he was mad enough to try his hardest to finish GX off. I think Vix was worried about GX's noble count plus had to defend Perleone. After all Vix was created out of their disagreement with Perdan's desire to reintegrate Perleone. As for Minas Nova, not sure why they joined.

P.S Looks like the thread got derailed. This reply will be my final two cent about GX. I won't add anything else after except regarding War Overhaul.

Chenier

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #36: February 16, 2018, 02:20:01 AM »
Are we even talking about the same game here? People rarely accept terms in this game. The winners usually want a city at least. Losers don't want to give up anything. Even when a sensible guy is on the throne and is willing to accept terms, players of that guy's realm sometimes overthrow the guy for accepting terms. Since you don't really lose much, people don't willingly give up. I think there should be a huge penalty for getting your realm destroyed like losing 90% of your honor and prestige you've earned in that realm upon your realm's destruction. Even after you run, this penalty should track you down. Maybe people will think twice about fighting to the end. Then again I doubt that will stop people since people quit once their realms get destroyed.

Hmm, an interesting idea, but that would lkikely cause increased defections when the boat is sinking, maybe even more realm deaths.

In my ten years of battlemaster, I can count on 1 hand the amount of wars that didn't end with the destruction of one realm or another.

Really...?

Sint, Hetland, Riombara, and Kingdom of Alluran vs. Enweil did not result in any realm dying.
Republic of Fwuvoghor vs. Avalon did not result in any realm dying.
D'Hara vs. Pian en Luries did not result in any realm dying.
Pian en Luries vs. Fissoa did not result in any realm dying.
Caerwyn vs. D'Hara did not result in any realm dying.
Astrum vs. Westgard did not result in any realm dying.
Swordfell vs. Astrum did not result in any realm dying.

And I can think of a bunch of other wars where I'm just not sure enough of the specifics anymore.

Wars don't frequently end in the destruction of a realm, but when they do, it's almost always the loser's fault.

Dwilight vs. Thulsoma, they were just really happy to trigger the religious folk with their blasphemy and everyone in general with their blatant exploits
Half of Dwilight vs. Aurvandil, for being such an obnoxious bunch of blatant multicheaters
SA vs. NA (Caligus), almost went for the kill, did not yet, but had we done it... well Caligus completely refused to negotiate, even if down to 1 city

Plus all the ill-fated colonies that were just never meant to be.

Zakky

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #37: February 16, 2018, 04:31:19 AM »
Astrum vs Westgard never happened. Westgard got scared and backed out when Hemmings chickened out by pausing. (might have deleted not sure)

Westgard's new ruler (who is the current ruler now) decide to apologize and normalize the situation. Dragomir accepted and moved on.

It was simple really. Unlike now, monsters were being funneled into Westgard so they really couldn't afford to fight Astrum. Hemmings was just stupid to think he could take on Astrum.




Realms started to survive more wars as the player base shrunk. People could no longer afford to set up colonies to replace existing realms. With the game stuck at 400 players, I doubt people want to destroy any realm but they probably still want to take at least a city or few regions.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 04:33:31 AM by Zakky »

GustavKuriga

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #38: February 16, 2018, 07:33:25 AM »
Hmm, an interesting idea, but that would lkikely cause increased defections when the boat is sinking, maybe even more realm deaths.

Really...?

Sint, Hetland, Riombara, and Kingdom of Alluran vs. Enweil did not result in any realm dying.
Republic of Fwuvoghor vs. Avalon did not result in any realm dying.
D'Hara vs. Pian en Luries did not result in any realm dying.
Pian en Luries vs. Fissoa did not result in any realm dying.
Caerwyn vs. D'Hara did not result in any realm dying.
Astrum vs. Westgard did not result in any realm dying.
Swordfell vs. Astrum did not result in any realm dying.

And I can think of a bunch of other wars where I'm just not sure enough of the specifics anymore.

Wars don't frequently end in the destruction of a realm, but when they do, it's almost always the loser's fault.

Dwilight vs. Thulsoma, they were just really happy to trigger the religious folk with their blasphemy and everyone in general with their blatant exploits
Half of Dwilight vs. Aurvandil, for being such an obnoxious bunch of blatant multicheaters
SA vs. NA (Caligus), almost went for the kill, did not yet, but had we done it... well Caligus completely refused to negotiate, even if down to 1 city

Plus all the ill-fated colonies that were just never meant to be.

I completely disagree with what I view is a biased viewpoint on your part, but we're not going to change each other's minds here, so let's just drop it.

Truce?

CryptCypher

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #39: February 16, 2018, 12:34:22 PM »
Gustav:

You're right about a few things, sadly. Magnus (I) didn't want to believe you (Sayuki) because he thought Robb was a friend and actually meant what he had promised. As a player I was cynical but as a character, Magnus' personality dictated his reaction.

Starfall straight up informed me OOC that he'd be pursuing an alliance with Caligus to wreck GX due to us pulling out of the alliance negotiations due to that ill-advised referendum after the no-allies faction got loud, and did roughly the same IC albeit more veiled. Apologies were said both ways, and we parted. To each his own.

Robb never liked Selenia, nor her personality or playstyle, nor did a number of other people. I was warned (for reasons I did not comprehend at the time) not to let a JeVondair take power for what it'd do to Xavax, but Selenia was my 2nd-in-command and the only person I could trust not to completely derail Xavax and erase its history&culture.

Also, for the record, Xavax had a secret faction super-early-on that wanted to conquer Ibladesh, so you're only half-right. They put pressure on certain key figures, including Magnus, in exchange for favors and support. I dunno what went on after Magnus abdicated early, but I doubt they just abandoned their entire plot-arc of reconquering Ibladesh and founding a Xavax-Ibladeshi satellite realm just because Selenia took power. I, at least, had convinced them to do it my way rather than overthrow the government and gun for Ibladesh right off the bat. They were even open to peaceful religious conversion, so long as their religion ended up being in charge of Ibladesh.

That one noblewoman was their leader, I forget who else was part of the faction though. God, we had so many factions... Too many influential, powerful players used to running the show.

Too many leaders, not enough followers. Probably what screwed us in the end.
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Chenier

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #40: February 16, 2018, 02:51:26 PM »
Realms started to survive more wars as the player base shrunk. People could no longer afford to set up colonies to replace existing realms. With the game stuck at 400 players, I doubt people want to destroy any realm but they probably still want to take at least a city or few regions.

Yes, I'll agree that realm survival increased with time.

The feasability in colonies is one factor, but there was also a culture shift, fed by a specific "anti-destruction" movement on the d-list and then forum and an increasing individualism and anti-coalition sentiment that encouraged realms to go on their own paths instead of following their bloc all the time.

Chenier

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #41: February 18, 2018, 06:42:19 PM »
Here's an idea for family wealth...

How about: remove the ability for players to send any gold to their families, and replace it completely with a greater passive growth. The passive growth could cap at 5k, and it could be based on the amount of traveling the nobles of the family are making (because it makes IC sense and because it's a good proxy for activity and desirable behavior).

CryptCypher

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Re: Make Battlemaster Great Again - War Overhault
« Reply #42: February 20, 2018, 10:46:34 AM »
Hmm. Good idea. Prevents abuse from people siphoning gold to enrich their family coffers, and makes things more intelligent.

Would be cool to slate a few more passive growth messages too. Make it feel more intimate/connected.
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Ketchum

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Of course. Do you think anyone knows what actually happens? But we can derive some stuff from the results of past wars. Luria Boreal for example. The war would have ended if they simply surrendered and apologized. What happened instead? They fought to the end and got destroyed. Didn't even put up a fight to be honest. However look at Farronite Republic. They surrendered when Farrowfield got sacked and they did not need to give up anything in return because they were smart about it.

Here are few other examples:

Perdan - Refused to give up their namesake city. Forced the ruler who was willing to accept the terms. After a couple battles, they accepted the same terms they originally refused.

Ibladesh - fought to the end. Got their realm split in two.

GX - fought to the end and got destroyed.

Caligus - lost a bunch of regions. Trying to get back what they lost. They probably won't since the north can't seem to win any battles recently. Maybe they will fight to the end too.
I still do not know Caligus defended Domus city, their former capital before it fall.

But Caligus with 3 regions certainly on backfoot. Not to mention Redhaven land, Krimml city got looted by Vix.

Realms started to survive more wars as the player base shrunk. People could no longer afford to set up colonies to replace existing realms. With the game stuck at 400 players, I doubt people want to destroy any realm but they probably still want to take at least a city or few regions.
I agree realms started to survive more wars. Think Nivemus on EC.

Survived the war with OI when OI hold the Kazakh Peninsula and even when Perdan(by virtue of being OI ally) tried knock on the war door hard by destroying whole Nivemus army in Kazan. How do you rebuild that whole army is how you know your own capability to survive.

Survived the war by Perdan on Nivemus on the war justification of some North tribe thing, thanks to probably the greatest Sirion General in history, Ryu. Imagined you watching Perdan army stuck on the road of 2 regions, you just need be smart to put 2 almost similar strength armies in 2 regions: From and To region Perdan army travel. Perdan army had to turn around, turn around until their units could no longer turn around. That was the war when Brock was Nivemus General and not Ruler.

Even survived war with Westmoor, Perdan which finally led to Westmoor demise and even Fane brief founding.

Nivemus even got a brief chance to war with Vix Tiramora and even our army came to Vix mountains and rural lands looting.

Nivemus even got chance to almost absorb OI whole lands, but Nivemus only managed to get Duchy of Kalmar through its former Emperor agreement but new Emperor proved tough to Brock charms, that was before the ice melted in the south and many characters migrated from sunken continents.

Probably the only war where Nivemus army got wiped out by Perdan while helping Perleone who was still its ally under attack from Perdan. It was a massacre of whole army. It was probably my character greatest regret as one by one the south realms started to fall under Perdan hegemony since then.

My character Brock was Nivemus Ruler through majority of these wars.

Now I feel my character has achieved a lot, that he has reached the stage where he may not be able to do more. Brock will do something soon.
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Eduardo Almighty

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Fontan, the Sultanante and even Westmoor. At one point, every ruler of Sirion (or someone on the Council) tried to force a surrender that would allow those realms to still exist in some way. Or because at first they thought Sirion couldn't win (like when Romul almost accepted peace with Fontan and the Sultanate because they eviscerated OR and Sirion could not fight back properly), or because they were convinced that these realms would indicate some ruler that would change everything and bring peaceful terms of coexistence, like Thomas Foxglove becoming King of Westmoor -- too bad the previous King did everything to be hated and make Westmoor be hated by Sirion, especially the Blood Elf of Sirion, as they called Erik.

Too bad they meet Erik as Judge of Sirion and Duke of Avamar by the way. He did everything in his power to win the public, instigate the war and the total destruction of his enemies. I think you can put the destruction of those realms in my account, at least as far as denying any terms of surrender; either because they were unrealistic, or because they simply were not convenient to a character who saw the opportunity to expand Avamarian borders until Krimml and Oligarch.
Now with the Skovgaard Family... and it's gone.
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