Author Topic: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?  (Read 771 times)

pcw27

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Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Topic Start: August 04, 2018, 10:47:30 PM »
I just did the math and Dwilight is at 2.6 players per region, well above the recommended minimum of 2, yet we're still getting ravaged by monsters and undead. It's at the point where only three realms even share a country border. This will eventually become a huge problem as p2p interaction is severely hindered.

Zakky

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #1: August 04, 2018, 11:04:50 PM »
I just did the math and Dwilight is at 2.6 players per region, well above the recommended minimum of 2, yet we're still getting ravaged by monsters and undead. It's at the point where only three realms even share a country border. This will eventually become a huge problem as p2p interaction is severely hindered.

Thought you had to reach 3?

Anaris

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #2: August 05, 2018, 03:45:39 AM »
3 is our target. Calling 2 a recommended minimum is a good way of putting it.

I will see about adjusting things a bit over the next few days, but can't promise anything immediate.
Timothy Collett

"The only thing you can't trade for your heart's desire...is your heart." "You are what you do.  Choose again, and change." "One of these days, someone's gonna plug you, and you're going to die saying, 'What did I say? What did I say?'"  ~ Miles Naismith Vorkosigan

Alex333

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #3: August 23, 2018, 12:45:50 PM »
I would like to point out that this forces people to make decisions they don't want to make. This is a game and should be a lot of options for people to feel good about their characters. Over the months we have lost quite a few players (autopaused) because of this constant grinding of monsters (and how many wars?). Is it so bad that people want to keep their realms alive? Why do characters have to completely change their realm and in some cases go against historical or traditional reasons just to fulfill this quota or face elimination? The lesser of the two evils would be just to pick a few realms and completely remove them then let players suffer or lose interest. Dragomir would rather die than to lose his home which a lot of people think the same way. Instead of making a decision they don't want to make, they leave the game. A better option that I am in favor of would be to just let realms thrive and allow more player to player interaction. People were excited of the things about to happen until the bug was fixed and ruined some people's plans and I had to see them leave the game.

One question I do have is why isn't this a realm to realm circumstance? Morek Empire has a 6:1 noble to region ratio and they are the worse off. Arnor has a 3.5 to 1 ratio and they are just as bad. Everyone else is doing better then them when almost half the realms on the continent have 2.5 or less noble to region ratio. The Lurias have an unfair advantage as a lot of players moved their characters there for OOC reasons a while ago to make a fun interactive place leaving all other realms to get pummeled by monsters. I can't blame players for wanting a more fun environment but I gotta say that this whole thing is unbalanced and realms like Arnor and Morek have suffered enough when they are well inside the intended ratio. Just remove them if that was the intention or throw them a bone if it wasn't.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Zakky

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #4: August 23, 2018, 02:07:19 PM »
This came up because people didn't want to be relocated. Nobody wanted to move. Let's not go into previous mistakes devs made which caused even sharper drop of players. They had a choice between doing nothing and letting the game die slowly over time or try to do something and make a difference.

Unfortunately, changes came with expected consequences but did not come with desired effects. So all the attempts ended in failure and now we are sitting at barely 400. To be honest, I think they should have just done it the hard way if they were going to force changes on people. Forcefully moving realms closer by taking cities away from realms close to each other so far off realms can be put there. That would have made people complain a lot but at least they would have gotten their desired changes of having realms closer. Instead, they went for a softer approach which yielded nothing but angry players and no result.

Now, some people are threatening to leave the game when they lose their realms. Madinan players and Fissoan players both will not move so they will just let their realms die then either leave the game or leave the island forever.

This was completely expected. I think the devs should have just given up on the idea of hoping to force people out of their realms and would rather just allow people to war each other without any distance penalty. At least that would have kept the game more interesting. Making things interesting attracts people. Forcing people to do what they don't want to in a GAME will only make them leave.

Qureshima1

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #5: August 23, 2018, 06:08:40 PM »
Hi. I'm playing the ruler of Arnor and the Devs mechanism is not working well. The three realms with the worst or lowest ratio of players to regions are doing really well, so its clear the code is not working as expected:

Morek Empire 6/1 = 6
Luria Nova 25/7 = 3.57
Arnor 7/2 = 3.5
Madina  12/4 = 3:1
Avernus    Monarchy 18/6 = 3
Westgard 26/9 = 2.89
Luria Ferrata 21/8 = 2.625
Helyg Derwyddon    5/2 = 2.5
Astrum 19/8 = 2.375
D'Hara    19/8 = 2.375
Swordfell 11/5 = 2.2
Sol 11/5 = 2.2
Fissoa 10/6 = 1.67


My point is that its a poor blunt instrument to achieve the aims of the Devs and they need to use something more precise and controllable. I suggest an ice age to wipe out regions in the north and south. Or something similar.

Another mistake was to allow Westgard to flourish in the West. That sent the population density down overall. Those westgard knights would have been more useful in the east to increase density.

Whatever the reasons for it, I think that your mechanism just isn't working as intended. There is still too much space. My sugestion is that the rogue increase in the west and an ice age starts in the north and south forcing players to compress in the center of the east continent. This will probably destroy Madina, Westgard, Avernus and it will badly hit Fissoa and Arnor, but it will at least compress everyone quickly without this constant attrition. Why not ask players in Dwilight to vote on it? I would vote to have the space compressed.

Alex333

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #6: August 23, 2018, 07:08:40 PM »
Really, I don't like any of it. Players are being punished for trying to play the game. It's not the players' fault that we have so few players. We should be thinking of other ways that doesn't hinder the players.
I find your lack of faith disturbing.

Zakky

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #7: August 23, 2018, 07:47:53 PM »
I believe the devs are thinking of replacing monsters with something else. I think someone suggested disallowing TO once you fall below a certain threshold. It would be a lot better than monsters for sure. Wouldn't mind having monsters around but there are just too many at the moment for players to do anything pvp. If they do go with disallowing TO once you fall below 3.0 ratio,

Morek Empire 6/1 = 6 - allowed 2 more regions
Luria Nova 25/7 = 3.57 - allowed 1 more region
Arnor 7/2 = 3.5 - allowed 1 more region
Madina  12/4 = 3:1 - x
Avernus    Monarchy 18/6 = 3 - x
Westgard 26/9 = 2.89 - x
Luria Ferrata 21/8 = 2.625 - x
Helyg Derwyddon    5/2 = 2.5 - x
Astrum 19/8 = 2.375 - x
D'Hara    19/8 = 2.375 - x
Swordfell 11/5 = 2.2 - x
Sol 11/5 = 2.2 - x
Fissoa 10/6 = 1.67 - x

So only three realms would be allowed to have more regions.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 07:51:20 PM by Zakky »

Vita

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #8: August 23, 2018, 08:16:44 PM »
Regarding current levels, remember rogues are cyclical. They choose their targets based on density while still far away and spend 1-2 weeks marching over, meaning situation has changed when they arrive. This also means realms get lulls after getting reduced where they rebuild 'to take back all our old regions', which causes them to come back again.

It's not about punishment or fault. It's about the simple reality that most realms today lack the players to provide a sustainable community that welcomes new players. The regions and realms that exist today are a relic of having many more players and are not sustainable for the current playerbase. Two and three nobles per region is a sheer reasonable minimum. The reality of a realm community was usually much more than that. I'm also starting to realize, based off player discussion in discord, that a minimum (10? 15?) number of nobles in a realm before it snowballs into a talkative community. It's really not about punishment as the whole point is to provide gradual, dynamic pressure allowing player reactions to the hordes vs the invincible onslaughts that closed the west and offered no reaction but fleeing, which I believe were a much worse mistake.

It has been the intent ever since daviceroy suggested it to change to a red text warning for low density on the start takeover page, blocking takeovers of rogue regions at a lower density level, and if a blocked-rogue-TO realm is in a human war and TOs a region it goes rogue instead of joining their realm. And an Abandon Region mechanic. And reduce rogue spawning and targeting.

Additionally, I've been looking at resurrecting the old nomad code from glaciers for realms who might want to forsake their lands to conquer new land elsewhere (or be given land by another ruler).

It takes time to implement these.

And with what Zakky said, I do not intend to have the block at such a high level initially. I think better to set it lower than 3 and to gradually increase it over time.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 08:19:05 PM by Vita »

Zakky

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #9: August 23, 2018, 08:39:16 PM »
I think that nomad code should just be a standard feature on all islands at this point. Might give more flexibility for people to move closer.

pcw27

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #10: August 23, 2018, 08:49:06 PM »
Whatever we do I'd advise against something that isolates either east or West. One of the things that's always made Dwilight an exciting and dynamic place to play was its central sea. If we want to push the realms in a certain direction I suggest towards the center. Perhaps we could make all lands along the coast of the central sea a temporary "safe" zone. Or if that's too many regions maybe just the cities and strongholds. That could create an interesting element reminiscent of Roman and Greek colonies.

Perhaps for the sake of player engagement we could make it possible for adventurers to create a buffer zone. Like if they hunt often enough in a certain region not only will rogue groups not form there but rogues from outside will avoid the region.

Zakky

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #11: August 23, 2018, 11:56:34 PM »
I agree with making more realms along the central coastal lines. Get rid of the distance penalty. Encourage realms to move toward the inner sea.

Qureshima1

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #12: August 24, 2018, 02:02:34 AM »
Regarding the idea of limiting takeovers by noble density. A realm needs a minimum size of 3 regions, say a city and 2 rurals to survive. So if you set the density to 2 nobles per region then you need 6 nobles to sustain a minimum sized realm. All the small realms in Dwilight have around 5 or 6 knights so could continue to survive in a small area of 3 regions. If however you set the limit to 3 nobles per region, Morek, Arnor and HD will soon cease to exist or at any rate will remain chronically short of food.

None of this sorts the problem, because even if you do shut down small realms all you will have is larger realms isolated by long distances with vast uninhabited areas in between. So no effective interaction between realms.

Qureshima1

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #13: August 24, 2018, 02:26:33 AM »
Some radical suggestions:

There are around 190 nobles in dwilght. That means if you ct the playable map area to 60 regions you will have an average density of 3 nobles per region. I have 2 ideas as to how to achieve this:

(1) Simple. Rogue make the entire west uninhabitable including Madina and Islands but not Dhara. Ice makes the north uninhabitable down to Aegirs Deep. Ice makes the south uninhabitable up to Orz bridge wiping out everything up to the bottom half of Luria. Result is around 60 inhabitable regions.

(2) Complex. Redesign the whole map taking every 7  regions and making them into one region. I think you'll end up with around 60 regions and the whole east and west will be opened up. Its a new map but I think it will keep the flavour of the old one and preserve continuity.

Either of these solutions will solve the problem without resorting to unpredictable devices. And they have the advantage of being a quick hit rather than the current death by a thousand cuts. Pease consider these options.

Cheers

Zakky

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Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #14: August 24, 2018, 02:58:26 AM »
2 is not going to happen. They are not interested in redesigning the map. Too much work.

1 is also not going to happen. Ice just didn't really work well. Allowing relocation would probably be a better idea. Make people settle near the inner sea. Like Vita said, start off with lower density limit then slowly raise it as the island gain new players.

To be honest, small dysfunctional realms should die. Morek, Arnor, Madina, and Fissoa don't contribute anything to the game at the moment. Would rather see them die but that is not how things work. Would rather see them be relocated to the cities on the inner sea like GF, Cheatau, Chesney and Paisly.