Author Topic: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?  (Read 795 times)

Stabbity

  • Marketing
  • Mighty Duke
  • *****
  • Posts: 1280
  • Formerly the Himoura Family. Currently ?????????
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #15: August 24, 2018, 03:56:17 AM »
To be honest, small dysfunctional realms should die. Morek, Arnor, Madina, and Fissoa don't contribute anything to the game at the moment. Would rather see them die but that is not how things work. Would rather see them be relocated to the cities on the inner sea like GF, Cheatau, Chesney and Paisly.

This.
Life is a dance, it is only fitting that death sing the tune.

pcw27

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 855
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #16: August 24, 2018, 07:21:54 AM »
Actually Morek and Arnor are currently the source of a major conflict within Sanguis Astroism. As the original theocracy the Elders are voting for a crusade to preserve Morek.

Qureshima1

  • Freeman
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #17: August 24, 2018, 12:00:13 PM »
My point is that if they have to die then they should die quickly with a big forced bang, not die over an extended period by a thousand cuts. This constant attrition is really demoralizing to players. Just decide what needs to happen and impose it to happen over just a few weeks.

I have yet another suggestion which I think will make it a really interesting, crowded and unique continent. Here it is. Make all regions unlivable except for those directly bordering the inland sea. That way humanity would be confined to a narrow strip around the inner coast, making sea travel important and forcing us all together to fight and trade. There are about 70 such regions so the density would be much greater than currently. It can be implemented very simply and easily. nothing like this has been attempted before and it would create a unique campaign in which the islands and sea travel would be really important. Its a great experiment and should be tried on this experimental continent.

Foxglove

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 508
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #18: August 24, 2018, 02:49:53 PM »
Another mistake was to allow Westgard to flourish in the West. That sent the population density down overall. Those westgard knights would have been more useful in the east to increase density.

It wasn't a mistake. You have to remember that all of the nobles who joined Westgard when it began had been forced to move to Dwilight because of their islands sinking. Westgard was an important psychological carrot to induce players to move characters to Dwilight (including some players who'd never played on Dwilight before (such as me)). By giving players something new to create, the Devs gave people an incentive to move. If they hadn't done that, Dwilight may not have got anything like as big an influx of characters as it did. It's also worth noting that Westgard has consistently been one of the most successful realms in Dwlight in terms of keeping a good noble count. In contrast, at least half of the eastern realms are failing.

This whole idea of 'the West should be abandoned and move everyone to the East' seems to be rooted in a mindset that the East is somehow intrinsically better. Which is untrue. Pretty much any quarter section of the map is theoreticallly as good as any other section. We could just as easily say that everyone should move in to the Northwest section in the box formed by Gelene, Darfix, Eidulb and Crysantilys. The same is true about the central map section. It's pretty much as good as any other section although it has the added advantage that every realm could probably reach every other realm via the sea.

I have yet another suggestion which I think will make it a really interesting, crowded and unique continent. Here it is. Make all regions unlivable except for those directly bordering the inland sea. That way humanity would be confined to a narrow strip around the inner coast, making sea travel important and forcing us all together to fight and trade. There are about 70 such regions so the density would be much greater than currently. It can be implemented very simply and easily. nothing like this has been attempted before and it would create a unique campaign in which the islands and sea travel would be really important. Its a great experiment and should be tried on this experimental continent.

People just don't like being forced to move, what ever way its done. This is the central problem that needs a solution. Anything that tells players 'you must move or you will be destroyed' is going to be counterproductive. Any time this has been done (e.g. with the ice) players have left the game in protest or disgust. If you - or anyone - wants players to move, it needs to be done through incentives. However, it should be noted that while my charater of Rosalind has been ruler of Westgard, she's repeatedly made offers to small realms that Westgard would help them to relocate their entire realms to other places in the map. For example, Madina has been offered Westgard's help to try to move to a more northern coastal city at least 3 times that I can remember.

So, the problem has three aspects. The first is that people can't be forced to move without creating negative blow back. The second is that people have natural sentimental attachments to their realms and don't want to let them die off even when they're down to a handful of nobles. The third is that some people are sentimentally attached to geographic sections of the map (particularly Madina, where the players really do love their lsland).

Any solution must satisfy these three problems, or it won't work. Redrawing the map simply to move every existing realm closer to each other is the ideal solution, but it's never going to happen. It's far too much work for a small volunteer Dev team. Also, by the time that such a big project was finished, some of the small realms might have ceased to exist anyway.

Resurrecting the nomad code to allow realms to relocate is a possible solution. However, this runs in to the problem of the identity of some realms being so wedded to their geographic locations that they wouldn't use it.

The solution probably is something along the lines of trying to induce everyone to form up around the inner sea using the nomad code or some other means. The main difficulty with that is that most prospective coastal capital cities are over on the inner coast of the West. But, vitally, any solution has to be done with the broad consent and input of the players so that they feel that it's a team effort. The wishes of realms that just don't want to move have to be respected and the solution works with them. Some how.

To be honest, and I don't know if this could even be done, the best thing would probably be just to have the Devs manually move entire realms in to formally rogue regions that are Dev stabilized. So, for example, some massive magical event moves Arnor (intact as a realm) to Golden Farrow. The nobles fall asleep and just wake up in a new perfectly stable area of the map in a better location. Again, it would have to be done in consultation with the players of the effected realms so they could choose where they landed to a certain extent.

Incentives are the key. Rather than forcing things on people.


Bluelake

  • BM Dev Team
  • Noble Lord
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Ta|i - Bluelake Family since 2007
    • View Profile
    • Family Tree
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #19: August 24, 2018, 03:52:32 PM »
I very much agree with Foxglove above.
Today is Thank Wimpie for Being an Awesome Dev Day. Give Wimpie some gratitude for his constant bugfixing, pestering of admins to get things done, and general Wimpieness.

Vita

  • Administrator
  • Honourable King
  • *
  • Posts: 2233
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #20: August 24, 2018, 04:21:25 PM »
So, the problem has three aspects. The first is that people can't be forced to move without creating negative blow back. The second is that people have natural sentimental attachments to their realms and don't want to let them die off even when they're down to a handful of nobles. The third is that some people are sentimentally attached to geographic sections of the map (particularly Madina, where the players really do love their lsland).
This is key and well-summarized here, so I'm quoting it by itself separate from rest of Foxglove's other important words.

pcw27

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 855
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #21: August 24, 2018, 05:31:37 PM »
I don't think we need to make it only the central sea coast, just that that should be the "safe zone" If there are only 70 regions that means we can afford to have a few spaces inland free as well.

Attachment to specific lands is not as much of a problem as we might think. As it stands there's only one realm that never had lands bordering the central sea, Arnor. Even HD once held Caiylin.

I think anything over dramatic like whole realms teleporting will upset players more. Better to just establish "safe zones" and "wild zones" the latter being free of monsters and the former impossible to take over. For flavor just say a natural evolution has taken place, the more aggressive monsters that recklessly attack human settlements have died out leaving only more docile ones that stay put and attack only when threatened. 

Zakky

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #22: August 24, 2018, 07:31:40 PM »
Foxglave put it perfectly. Couldn't have put it better myself.

Devs should contact the rulers of these tiny realms and talk to them individually as well not just push codes that they think will work because they clearly haven't.

There is a big advantage to moving people to the inner sea regions. People will be able to interact with each other using sea zones which is much faster than land travel. This alone should help people interact each other more.

I kinda like the idea of setting safe zones. Making monsters stay out of the inner sea regions while making them prevent players from occupying regions connected to oceans (Darfix, Poryatown, Flowerestown etc).

But yeah, talking to players who need to be moved is important. Maybe talking to them will find a way to preserve their realms cultures as well.

Chenier

  • Honourable King
  • *****
  • Posts: 7965
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #23: August 25, 2018, 03:37:55 AM »
I can't help but make the observation that, regardless of density, realms with wealthy cities fare well, realms with poorer regions get crushed.

pcw27

  • Mighty Duke
  • ****
  • Posts: 855
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #24: August 25, 2018, 03:54:13 AM »
I can't help but make the observation that, regardless of density, realms with wealthy cities fare well, realms with poorer regions get crushed.

That's how things often work out in real life too.

Zakky

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #25: August 25, 2018, 04:20:56 AM »
I can't help but make the observation that, regardless of density, realms with wealthy cities fare well, realms with poorer regions get crushed.

That is why Westgard is doing well as well. Imagine what would have happened if Westgard only owned Gaston.

Qureshima1

  • Freeman
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #26: August 25, 2018, 10:18:33 AM »
Why not just relax the density code?

If you allow a density as low as 1.5 nobles per region before rogues are attracted then a realm of 6 knights can hold 4 regions, a city, a townsland and 2 rural regions. That is enough to survive.

Qureshima1

  • Freeman
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #27: August 25, 2018, 10:23:30 AM »
I like the idea of safe zones along the inner sea. I don't like the idea of not being able to take sea border regions. I think safe zones along INNER sea only will force us all to the center around the sea and will also allow us to expand out at a cost of rogue attacks.

At least this will allow us a unique inner sea culture and will alow a lot of realms to keep their current lands or portions thereof. Its a good solution.

Zakky

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #28: August 25, 2018, 01:59:58 PM »
That is not the point though. If the density is set that low, realms will try to grow super large again.

If your realm is too small, you shouldn't even be playing there unless it is a new realm. It means your realm is not interesting and is a failure. The density should be at least 2. 3 is too stiff but 1.5 is just too low. You should at least have a lord and a knight per region otherwise we are back to good old lords only regions.

Zakky

  • Noble Lord
  • ***
  • Posts: 378
    • View Profile
Re: Can we cut Dwilight some slack now?
« Reply #29: August 25, 2018, 02:04:37 PM »
Maybe instead of density we should have codes that drive regions rogue when there are no knight in the region. Forcing people to have at least 1 knight 1 lord per region.

But yeah for now that preventing TO when your density falls too low will work.