Author Topic: Rejected: Remove adventurers from the game  (Read 6824 times)

PolarRaven

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #30: September 11, 2018, 08:35:41 PM »
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this is the first time anyone has made any organized effort to use adventurers in war


organized effort

And this is where the true problem lies in my opinion.
Was this accomplished OOC? 
That is cheating and the involved parties (and only them) should be punished IMO.

More likely this attack was accomplished by a group of guild members working together, which is currently allowed and acceptable IG.
Maybe a more effective way to deal with this would be to prevent guilds from including commoners. 
Why would any noble want to be in a guild that included commoners, other than to control those commoners?

To my knowledge, guilds are the only effective IG method of organizing many commoners to a common goal.
A single Lord may be able to rally a few commoners to their cause, but there is always a chance that they will contact "the wrong commoner" and have their plans disclosed to "the wrong people".

Medron Pryde

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #31: September 11, 2018, 08:59:29 PM »
This effort aimed at a nation that had welcomed a Daimon worshiping religion into their city, and whose emperor joined the religion in question, was organized by members of a guild that is an offshoot of the Daishi religion which is aimed entirely at fighting Daimons.

My characters joined that guild, primarily to keep an eye on them and to coordinate with them at times of need, but my characters are not part of the central most trusted part of the guild.

So my characters were not part of the planning or organizing.  Which means I rather failed at my goal of keeping track of what they were doing.  ;)

They also did the same thing some months ago while at war with ANOTHER nation who followed a different religion.  Though admittedly that religion did not specifically worship Daimons.  Though the leader of that realm had promised to destroy one of the realms of Daishi.  So...you know...there was, once again, perfectly justifiable IC reasons to go on the warpath that time as well.

PolarRaven

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #32: September 11, 2018, 09:14:13 PM »
Sorry, I am/was not sure how to specify who and when the quote is from.  (just noticed my quotes were different from most).
Oh, just got it.  ;D

Think of how commoners should be treated, and then try to reconcile that with nobles giving a handful of them dozens of scrolls to go blast another realm from existence.

How commoners should be treated and played has little to do with how they actually are.

Well, for starters, commoners do not need nobles to give them scrolls.  It is commoners that bring most scrolls into the game.
I admit that I have often treated commoners with a little respect, but then, I have never beaten my horse either. 
Commoners are where most UI's and scrolls come from, commoners are the only ones that can have IU's repaired, etc.
Like my horse, they have their uses.

It is my opinion that a horse should be treated well so long as he is performing his desired function.  When his usefulness to me ends, it is time to "retire" him and get a new one.

Is it the fault of the horse when I gather 100 together and train them for war against an enemy that is not prepared to deal with a cavalry charge?

Chenier

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #33: September 12, 2018, 12:10:35 AM »
Sorry, I am/was not sure how to specify who and when the quote is from.  (just noticed my quotes were different from most).
Oh, just got it.  ;D

Well, for starters, commoners do not need nobles to give them scrolls.  It is commoners that bring most scrolls into the game.
I admit that I have often treated commoners with a little respect, but then, I have never beaten my horse either. 
Commoners are where most UI's and scrolls come from, commoners are the only ones that can have IU's repaired, etc.
Like my horse, they have their uses.

It is my opinion that a horse should be treated well so long as he is performing his desired function.  When his usefulness to me ends, it is time to "retire" him and get a new one.

Is it the fault of the horse when I gather 100 together and train them for war against an enemy that is not prepared to deal with a cavalry charge?

One of the players involved said he was given scrolls by a noble.

The comparison with horses is absurd. Advies were always meant to be a roleplay side-game, not tools of war.

There's also absolutely no possible defense against what was pulled off. None whatsoever. BM was never about sending ICBMs to foreign nations to just watch them die from afar.

If you really want to compare with horses, think of that: would you leave a horse alone in a room with an unprotected button to launch nukes? But they had no reason to worry about it, the advies are all their alts anyways, so it's just giving themselves the launch codes. Players don't typically backstab themselves.
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Zakky

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #34: September 12, 2018, 01:01:32 AM »
Slowest ICBMs ever~  8)

Gordy77

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #35: September 12, 2018, 02:30:58 AM »
None of my adventurers have any connection, political or other to my nobles. I've played them largely where they spawned, and more or less loyal to his nation. They may travel within their allied lands, but I have at least one island where the noble and adventurer realms are at war. There's no suggestion or evidence they are working with each other, but I've seen that held against players before (with the adventurer paying the cost).

So you don't want them allied, or opposing your nobles, what's your alternative? Make the characters exclusive (advy or noble?) or get rid of them entirely? I'm not kidding when I say, at times, the adventurer character is the more fun to play.

Chenier

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #36: September 12, 2018, 02:57:53 AM »
None of my adventurers have any connection, political or other to my nobles. I've played them largely where they spawned, and more or less loyal to his nation. They may travel within their allied lands, but I have at least one island where the noble and adventurer realms are at war. There's no suggestion or evidence they are working with each other, but I've seen that held against players before (with the adventurer paying the cost).

So you don't want them allied, or opposing your nobles, what's your alternative? Make the characters exclusive (advy or noble?) or get rid of them entirely? I'm not kidding when I say, at times, the adventurer character is the more fun to play.

I think I've made this very clear. The title of this feature request is "remove adventurers from the game". A fall-back compromise offered just a few posts earlier was exactly the other option, "make adventurer slots no longer free and force players to pick one or the other for each continent".

All in all, adventurers were never meant to be used as tools of warfare. This has always been Tom and the devs' line. And every single time that people thought of ways to get an advantage from them, they were nerfed as a consequence. They can't share scout reports anymore, they can't sell items to their own players anymore, they can't sell the same item back and forth rapidly anymore, and now they can't cast magic anymore. It's all coherent moves to correct them being used differently than they were intended. All I want is for that initial wish to be respected. I don't want to ever have to care about anyone's adventurer. I don't want them to ever have any power over any of my noble characters.
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PolarRaven

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #37: September 12, 2018, 03:11:04 AM »
One of the players involved said he was given scrolls by a noble.

I was not involved, so can not say what actually happened. 
But as I stated, advies do not need to be given scrolls as they are the ones that have scrolls made for them.

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The comparison with horses is absurd. Advies were always meant to be a roleplay side-game, not tools of war.

Maybe they were not intended to be tools of war, but they are certainly intended to provide tools for war.
Someone earlier stated that the exact same event could have been accomplished by some priests.
I wonder, would you be calling for the removal of Priests and religion if that were the case?

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There's also absolutely no possible defense against what was pulled off. None whatsoever. BM was never about sending ICBMs to foreign nations to just watch them die from afar.

A narrow minded view.  No defense? 
Maybe you should have had a spy in their ranks to provide you advance warning. 
Your realm could have made a point of capturing and executing any advy that came near.
Your nobles could go hunt advies at any time with no penalties.
I know that hindsight is 20/20, but defense is not so impossible as you would have us believe.

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If you really want to compare with horses, think of that: would you leave a horse alone in a room with an unprotected button to launch nukes?

Now it is you who sounds absurd, everyone knows that a horse can not turn a key.

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But they had no reason to worry about it, the advies are all their alts anyways, so it's just giving themselves the launch codes. Players don't typically backstab themselves.

I can not speak for others, but MY advies actually mean something to me.  They are not as disposable as you seem to think.
I have started nobles that have gotten lucky, and by starting in the right place at the right time they have progressed very quickly to positions of power. 
The same can not be said for ANY of my advies.  They must work long and hard, against the odds, to eke out even the smallest bit of advancement. 

Every realm on every continent has had to deal with advies casting spells.  Truly a nuisance to all.
It just so happens that someone finally thought to co-ordinate their efforts in one city at the same time.
I wonder, if your realm had held 4 cities when this had happened, would it have been such a big deal?

A few people decided to "kick your realm while it was down", so you cry foul and EVERY player with an advy on EVERY continent now suffers.
But I guess that it is OK because they are only ALTS.

Bronnen

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #38: September 12, 2018, 04:08:48 AM »
Yes.  If the realm had 4 cities or even ten,  I would have hated it either way.

If priests did it I would not have.

steelabjur@aol.com

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #39: September 12, 2018, 09:25:54 AM »
The two realms in question were not at war, it would have been easier to move a couple of nobles in with high spellcasting, hit the Ruler with a wounding scroll first to keep him from declaring war, and done the exact same thing without any risk at all to our characters. Using Advies or Priests would actually be the suboptimal way of going about this, as you only need a single active noble with a few hours to arrest them, not so with nobles, and since the realms were not at war, the nobles could go in without units without fear of arrest. Might have taken slightly longer, but I doubt it, and as long as the ruler is kept locked down it wouldn't matter. Trying to paint this as a flaw of the Adventurer class is short-sighted.

Chenier

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #40: September 12, 2018, 03:00:24 PM »
I'd have preferred priests, yes. But the devs also stated that if they saw priests start being used in this way, they would likely intervene to stop it.

All this is getting repetitive so I won't bother much anymore, but a last point...

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A narrow minded view.  No defense?
Maybe you should have had a spy in their ranks to provide you advance warning.
Your realm could have made a point of capturing and executing any advy that came near.
Your nobles could go hunt advies at any time with no penalties.
I know that hindsight is 20/20, but defense is not so impossible as you would have us believe.

The attack came without warning. You can't even see adventurers in regions you aren't even in yourself, because of how unimportant they are supposed to be. When the attack took place, I immediately looked at who was in Wudenkin to see who was responsible, only to learn to my great dismay that the only people I could see there were my own wounded realm-mates.

Spying is a !@#$ solution and you make me angry just for proposing it. Spying has been EXTREMELY detrimental to this game. Spying is a large reason why we can't have two characters per continent anymore. Spies create distrust, which creates secrecy, which create boredom. I have no issues with characters going turncoat if given proper justification, but to set out to implant spies on others is !@#$ty sportsmanship and, imo, a breach of the social contract.

There was also no forewarning about this. The main realm behind this is themed after an evil faction in Lord of the Rings. No declarations were made, neither before nor after. How would we even know what to look for?

Caputing all advies? Do you have any idea how impractical that is? And how worthless that is? There are huge hordes all around us. We can't police beyond our borders. And since they don't show up on scout reports, we can't even see them coming. Besides, it'd be of no help. Because advies don't act on TC. If at least it was that, it'd be a click-race after turn-change where all get an equal chance. But it isn't, the advies pop into the city only when its player is online. And he can immediately start blasting everyone away. You get a few seconds at most to figure out what is happening and react.

Do you even play on BT to make such ridiculous suggestions? Because it ain't just BK. My priest has been in a few realms now, and even those with more than 1 region are plagued by huge rogue hordes, both around and within their borders. I'd LOVE to go hunt down all advies of BT and execute them all. But that's just not feasible.
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Bronnen

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #41: September 12, 2018, 08:32:03 PM »
The two realms in question were not at war, it would have been easier to move a couple of nobles in with high spellcasting, hit the Ruler with a wounding scroll first to keep him from declaring war, and done the exact same thing without any risk at all to our characters. Using Advies or Priests would actually be the suboptimal way of going about this, as you only need a single active noble with a few hours to arrest them, not so with nobles, and since the realms were not at war, the nobles could go in without units without fear of arrest. Might have taken slightly longer, but I doubt it, and as long as the ruler is kept locked down it wouldn't matter. Trying to paint this as a flaw of the Adventurer class is short-sighted.

Nobles without units would run the risk of being robbed by rogues, captured by rogues, or injured by rogues.

PolarRaven

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #42: September 13, 2018, 12:45:16 AM »
Nobles without units would run the risk of being robbed by rogues, captured by rogues, or injured by rogues.
And advies run the risk of being arrested or beaten in any and every region they pass through, not only rogue regions.
There is no region that is truly safe for advies.

Strange that you would be relying on the Rogues to keep you safe from other nobles though.

Chenier

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #43: September 13, 2018, 01:19:32 AM »
And advies run the risk of being arrested or beaten in any and every region they pass through, not only rogue regions.
There is no region that is truly safe for advies.

Strange that you would be relying on the Rogues to keep you safe from other nobles though.

No... Advies never get arrested or beaten by rogues, wtf. The rogues protect the advies, the rogues are a large part of why advies are unstoppable.
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steelabjur@aol.com

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Re: Remove adventurers from the game
« Reply #44: September 13, 2018, 01:32:50 AM »
And advies run the risk of being arrested or beaten in any and every region they pass through, not only rogue regions.
There is no region that is truly safe for advies.

Strange that you would be relying on the Rogues to keep you safe from other nobles though.

Not to mention it doesn't matter, the nobles could lead units into the region and drop them as soon as they entered the region before the attack.

Also, a few facts, since the claim "the advies are all their alts" Angmar, the realm in question has 19 nobles and 8 Advies at the time of this post. Out of of those 8, 4 are played by players with nobles also in the realm.